is my OH having a headfuck affair or am I being totally paranoid? HELP

[dancerinthedark]

Hi there
I'm going mad and need a bit of advice. My husband worked very closely with a woman last year...a younger woman. I have met her and she flirts badly. I rose above it and decided not to be bothered. Later, he was vile to me for a while and I challenged him about this younger woman. He confessed that there had been 'a conversation' in which he had told her he had strong feelings for her. He then, decided that this was just a moment of confusion and he didn't mean it after all. They still work together here and there and by the nature of the job, have contact alot via phone/email/facebook etc. and sometimes face to face. A good few months after the first 'storm', in a moment of extreme paranoia I checked his phone messages (really out of character for me, I'm usually very dignified when the chips are down) I discovered one from her saying 'I love you xxx'. I challenged him and he said it was just how she was, she was being a daft hippy etc...I half believe him but I feel very unhappy that he thinks he can continue an intimate friendship that hurts me in such a way. It has upset the balance of our relationship. He refuses to see that the whole thing undermines me, her flirtatious manner disrespects me, he loves his ego getting a good massage and I feel like shit.
What do I do?
Advice and different perspectives would be so appreciated....I am of course hurt, furious, paranoid, loving mother to our 2 children, etc.....

Thanks WWIFN that is very sweet of you.

I don't know about the link- I sort of hate the fact my threads exist, as they are such private thoughts and very, very real emotions but of course that's mad, as they couldn't be more public!

Having a thread just makes you feel very vulnerable and exposed. But I suppose it was through such exposure that I was able to get the help I did and dancer needs the same right now. I don't mind but have to go myself now till tomorrow

Hi, how do you find loves2walk's thread, please

Hey, Dancer. I'm sorry you're in this horrible state of insecurity. You've received replies from some of mn's best - and I'm sure they're making you feel pretty crap. We all have that very strong urge to tell ourselves it'll be all right & we're just being silly ...

I'm afraid I'm on the side of your gut feelings I have no further advice for you, but decided to post as I often feel I'm the ONLY poster here, whom your H would describe as a daft hippy! I do randomly kiss acquaintances, call everybody darling & sweetie, and often tell people I love them! I put kisses at the end of my messages so routinely, I have to go back & delete them before sending a business email

So the issue in your story, for me, is not that she flirts like a nutter and sents mushy texts. I know fine well that can be innocent. My concern is his response to you.
He's already told you he's got feelings for her. Those feelings were so strong, in fact, that he chose to devalue you (being off with you) which is a way of defending his feelings against his marriage. Now he's putting her down to you, with his "daft hippy" remark, and simultaneously putting you down too, by dismissing your concerns & pretending he doesn't realise the text would upset you after what he's already told you.

He's not being very nice at all, is he? How you respond is up to you. The one thing you can't do, unfortunately, is control his relationship with her. You can ony control your side of it.

If you choose to dig for evidence, go ahead - but remember you're married by choice, and you make that choice fresh every day. You don't actually need 'proof' to end it or to change it. You may choose to make a bit of a fuss, then let it go. Or you may decide you were through when he told you about his feelings towards another woman. Whatever you do, I wish you the very best - I know you'll get good advice here. Keep talking!

I agree with grace - if this girl is flirty that might be something she regularly says to people and it might be unsolicited. I work in a very sociable job where alot of people will say they love you daily and obviously it means nothing at all other than being fond of someone. I always send kisses etc as well to everyone, it doesn't mean i really want to kiss them.

However it might mean he is having an affair and best thing to do is snoop and find out. if she really does love him you owe it to yourself to find out one and for all.

Erm, I am a daft hippy and the only people I say I love you to (apart from Mr Tigga and The Cub) are my female friends. Usually followed with, 'in a platonic way, don't get excited or sue me' The only way I'd text a bloke I love you is if he was a VERY good friend and I was being funny such as 'I love you more than life itself - honest, I'm not saying that so you'll give us a lift to x'

I do however, flirt outrageously with everyone male or female. But it's SO over the top it can't be taken seriously and on the odd occasion where one person was uncomfortable with it I stopped immediately. You can always tell!

SorryButIThinkYourInstinctsAreSpotOnTiggaxx

Oh, here we go again. Yet another fine example of people being far to frivolous with their & other peoples emotions. It's just so bloody easy

Dancer, you OH needs a swift kick in the shins, the tit.

Delicate situ though, so might not be the best course of action.

It would be great if you could sit him down & explain that this whole episode, his behaviour & handling of things has really upset you. Ignoring all of the extraneous facts, if the roles were reversed, how the hell would he feel?

As others have said, you probably need to push that door, but usually, there's no return.

Everyone here is behind you on this, but all the agreement in the world though isn't going to feel like much comfort.

I do hope things improve quickly, not least that you OH steps back into the real world & starts treating you like you deserve.

dancerinthedark hopefully you have heard from enough people now to validate that your feelings are absolutely valid and that your instincts are spot-on. That in itself can be incredibly strengthening, although frightening too as Loves2Walk says.

I want to reinforce to you how sound those instincts of yours are. When you met that woman and saw how flirty she was, it jarred, but I'd bet it was something about your H's reaction to it that really niggled. You say you "decided to rise above it". This was probably your first bit of denial, bargaining with yourself that your H would be able to see straight through the flirtiness and that he couldn't be blamed if someone fancied him, right?

Then your H started to behave in a "vile" way to you. Your instincts led you to immediately connect the two issues; the OW and your H's behaviour to you. Spot on again. It turns out there has been a mutual expression of attraction and a "conversation", that he would never have told you about if you hadn't forced the issue.

Months later, your instincts served you well yet again. You behaved in a way that is most out of character and looked at his phone. You had your suspicions confirmed again.
You were fobbed off with a ludicrous tale.

I wonder what has happened most recently, that caused you to post? Trust those instincts above everything, they've never once let you down. Every time your inner voice has moved you to take action, you've been proved right.

Now it might help you if you keep remembering this truth. The moment this friendship crossed the line to the extent that they admitted a mutual attraction, was the moment he should have distanced himself from it.

Instead, he moved towards it, behaving in a vile way to you, in order to increase his justifications.

The mistake you made (but hindsight is a wonderful thing) was in not expressing your expectations clearly and emphatically as soon as he admitted to having that "conversation". That this friendship must end.

The problem with this was also that by the time he admitted the conversation, he had no doubt become addicted to the feelings he was getting. As long as you couldn't prove anything and weren't insisting he ended the friendship, he could carry on.

And it did, till we get to the point when she is saying she loves him.

Hopefully what you're seeing now is that he has done such a number on you, belittling your feelings and making you feel you are "going mad" and "paranoid" (I am quoting your words) and that contrary to this, you have simply been gaslighted. Google that term for more information - it is horrifying.

You are not mad, paranoid or unreasonably jealous. He has behaved appallingly to you and I suspect there is so much more you don't know. Hopefully this will give you strength to find out now.

I would also add, if this is an affair and he admits it and tells you the truth at last, you can if you choose, move on from this and learn about safe friendships and how to deal with perfectly normal temptations in a marriage. But not while there are still secrets.

So my advice to you right now is to stop confronting him at all and start to verify things for yourself. Do some checking up via the usual methods and don't feel in the least bit guilty for doing so. This is your mental health at stake and no-one's going to preserve that more than you. This is a kindness to yourself and is long overdue.

Keep posting.

I think your instincts are correct too

I am quite a loving person, always saying it to family, friends etc. The only person I text 'I love you x x x' to is dh.

The only person to text me the same is dh.

Dancer, there's very little I can add over and above the great advice you've had, especially WWIFN and loves2walk, except to send you my support.

You will find some amazing, wise words here on MN.

My situation's similar to yours, I also found an 'I love you, you are my daydream' text on my H's phone 2 months ago.

My only evidence that anything was amiss beforehand was also a general nastiness, criticism, and negativity towards me.

Friends also tried to tell me she's a luvvie who talks like that. But the truth, when it came out, was that they had had an emotional affair, kissing, but stopping short of sex.

It's only because he has stopped all contact with her, cancelled fb a/c's, stopped drinking and going out, stopped going to the places where they 'bumped into each other' that I feel able to make any progess. It's slow and hard work, and involves regular counseling. I am still unsure where we will end up. There are children, and a long marriage at stake. We have discovered things in our relationship from both sides that have been unhealthy.

I honestly don't think a woman sends an 'I love you text' to a man who has confessed he has strong feelings, unless she is actually involved in an affair of some sort, or would like one.

Get whatever evidence you need, and then confront him. Don't be afraid.

You need to do it for your own sanity, and to be able to make any progress with him.

I haven't read all of the replies but talk to him, explain how his ego trip is making you feel vulnerable and ask him for the sake of your sanity and the safety of your relationship to read this book. It talks about unsafe friendships and how to affair proof your relationship.

I quite often text my male friends I love you, but I have known them 20 years???

Thanks for you honest and helpful words. He's definitely seeing her and sort of has to, it's his refusal to understand how hard it is for me to accept the situation (well I can't accept it as it is)He maintains a defended position as if it's normal and ok and it's just not...he's very bad at taking responsibility for hthings when he's been a tosser!

WWIFN that is the most sense i have ever read on here. Dancer, please take the advice and get some concrete evidence, your sanity needs that.

Hope you get it sorted.

Hey helicopterview, I was moved by your message. Blimey, what havoc is wreaked by wreckless vanity and how difficult to NOT feel your confidence eroding (I mean mine) I was wondering whether or how you had kept yours intact? It's the issue of wanting to move forward and get beyond it all and I can't until he will admitt that he's ripping me to shreds. Love2walk did your relationship work out? Thanks again to all and WWIFN for fabulous support

So what are you going to do OP? Are you going to get some external evidence, rather on relying on him to tell you the truth? He won't, you see.

Start with that first. If what you find bears out that this is an emotional, rather than combined (emotional and physical) affair, then what would stop you OP, from making some conditions? Just because he has to see her for work, does not mean he needs to be texting her and messaging her on Facebook. The condition is that the friendship ends and that only the professional working relationship continues, as long as it really has to. And I'd really question even that - he should be making every effort to sever any ties with her at all.

If he is not prepared to put your marriage before this friendship, then you have your answer and act accordingly. Don't wait for this to fizzle out, please. Nothing will be resolved that way.

I'm afraid I think it is likely that this is a full-blown affair. Please look for evidence.

Can't do any better than what previous posters have said but..

you MUST get evidence because he will only ever admit to what he thinks you can prove.. ie nothing, and that will start to make you think you're going crazy.

Do it discreetly, if he thinks you're checking up on him he will be more careful and evidence will be impossible to gather. Take your time and front him out when you've got enough to corner him.

Good luck OP, I know how awful you must be feeling right now

The confidence issue - RL friends, counseling all help.

And I guess I cope well, which helps. But it's part of the problem in that my h has hidden behind my strength, for example when tough words are needed with 3rd parties. Turning me, with my complicity, into a sort of mother figure. Typically he'd say 'what do you want me to do?', or 'you sort it out'.

Can you tell I've had a lot of therapy!

Re your h's work, and constant contact with OW, can he not change departments, or teams, or offices?

I second everything that has been said here. I have been in a similar position, which dragged on for years (yes, years!).

I wish now that I had immediately been much more assertive about setting clear boundaries for his interaction with the OW (eg no flirty texts - just an absolutely neutral professional relationship).

And I really advise you to be as sneaky as you can to get to the truth about what has been going on, because you cannot get over this unless you can be satisfied that you do know the full truth.

I also know that denial (eg choosing to believe his explanations) is a really seductive option. Especially when you know that confrontation is likely to be horrible and the consequences uncertain. But I also know that denial just prolongs the pain. To make these sort of things go away, you have to look them in the eye, however hard that might be.

My advice to you would be to look for evidence. Don't underestimate peoples' capacity for deceit, or their inability to empathise or imagine the consequences of their behaviour. Decide what you can and can't live with. And then tell him - as clearly and calmly as you can.

Good luck - thinking of you.

Waves to Mrs. Jellicle. Brief hijack, I have been wondering how you are. I responded to your update, as did Karmann - and wondered how you were?

Been here too. Their behaviour is all so cliched, and so bloody agonising to go through. It's the sense that you're losing your mind, or being paranoid which does the most damage ime.

A year or so on, things couldn't be more different for me, but I really wish I'd set firmer boundaries for XH at the time and not prolonged the whole separation process. There was no way back once the trust had been eroded to such a massive extent, and I'll never forgive him making me doubt myself, nor the endless lies.

MN was also a lifeline for me then, (AF and WWIFN in particular, were brilliant as ever,) and I may post an update in my previous name at some point as my story is spookily similar and now has a happier ending.

OP, I hope you can resolve this quickly, however you decide to proceed. It isn't clear cut and you need to do what's best for you. Many people can come out the other side, others couldn't contemplate doing that. We can advise as much as you need us to but ultimately it's your very personal decision to make - take control and you'll feel better.

Hi dancer, my relationship is still undergoing work. Some days I am optimistic that it will work out, most days recently. Others I just feel I am prolonging an eventual split. Today though I'm good and living for these days!

My H also has to work with OW- there is no option and they have daily contact.

Our path to tackling it only started when I consulted MN in a moment of despair that my view of what was acceptable and loving was so at odds with my Hs view. We had never before been far apart on an issue. MN gave me an alternative view- just like you've got here. It was a shock to me. I spent a few weeks getting help on here and being stonewalled by my H. I then phoned 2 girlfriends to talk it through who were supportive. Finally I had a relate phone counselling session and she also validated my views of how inappropriate Hs behaviour was. Like MNers she didn't think it relevant that I had no evidence of sexual contact. His denial that I had a right to set tight boundaries, his lack of compassion and care for my upset were all enough.

So on the face of my H still ignoring my concerns, despite me telling him pretty assertively by this point that I was unhappy, I contacted a solicitor to ask about divorce. Over the phone again, I had some advice that I had grounds for DV for unreasonable behaviour. So I moved to spare room, told my H about the solicitor, said I had absolute evidence that he HAD been having an affair, that it was my right to keep the evidence to myself for now, but that unless he admitted everything then and there and it completely tallied with my evidence, I was starting DV proceedings and seperating. BTW I had no good evidence - I bluffed that. I had a receipt for a wine and beer and a few flirty texts but I way exaggerated and made it sound like evidence of an affair. He was thrown, in tears, beside himself with distress, denied an affair continually but did admit he had ignored my upset to continue a friendship. Anyway, sorry this is going on a bit now! But maybe your H needs that type of drastic wake up call too. He now says, he can't believe the extent to which he took me for granted, he will do anything to make it right again and he is doing loads. Helping more, trying to be fun guy again and treating me like a best friend, woman and sexual being that needs love and affection rather than an unpaid servant that needs orders!

Sorry dancer about the lack of paragraphs- can't do iPhone MN very well and not near a computer.

If you do get through the denials and get your H to understand your very valid concerns, he may be able to set the boundaries that others have mentioned despite still working together. This is the stage my H and I are at. It is hard work and leads to heated discussions which are sometimes then taken to our weekly couple counselling, but we have got through everyone so far with an outcome that I am happy with. That is massive.

If my H had not been as keen on counselling as he was, we would not be where we are today IMO.

Does your H show any signs of understanding your concerns? Have you talked about it recently? Have you asked him to visualise the same siutation reversed and try very hard to imagine his feelings. Watch him when he does this, paint the picture for him so it is real, and make him live in it for a few minutes, then tell you what it feels like. I used a real guy when I did this with
my H, and after a year of throwing this at him briefly then him moving on quickly to his defense, me forcing him to imagine a nearly real scenario, gave him a different perspective. He admitted he would be threatened. You need anything to make your H see the severity of your concern for the future of your marriage.

would it be wrong of me to speculate who thatsnotmyfruitshoot is ?

update, lady, we like happy endings, ya know

< sorry for hijack >

carry on

loves2, I remember your "wine & beer" thread and am DELIGHTED things are going so much better for you! Chutzpah, you've got it

dancer, listen to these ladies ... Good luck!

AF, I will certainly do so in the next week or so, and drop you a little clue when I do

I think when you're going through this situation, you can't see anything beyond the utterly hellish misery of it. Last year I couldn't imagine being happy again, and some days are still tough, but nothing on that horrible feeling of sick uncertainty when I was trying to work out what H was up to. If I can help anyone else get through this, I will!!