What more can I say?

[backtothedrawingboard]

I've got a difficult relationship for all sorts of reasons and I've posted on here about some of them. I finally spoke to H two weeks ago and told him that I felt like our relationship was over. I told him that I felt so tired and couldn't take the responsibility of everything anymore. Worst of all, I told him that I wasn't sure that I wanted to carry on and that I thought it might be best if we separated. I tried to convince him that he would have a better relationship with the kids if he lived apart from them.

I hate upsetting people and it was really difficult watching him fall apart but I got through what I needed to say to him. He said that leaving me and the kids was not an option for him, we have no choice but to make it work, didn't I remember my marriage vows etc, etc.

He is now going through a denial. He is trying harder to do more at home and cook dinners etc (he works part time and picks up DS from school - I often don't get home from work until gone 6pm). But he has completely missed the point that our relationship is broken to a point of no return.

He definitely heard what I said but he does not want to discuss anything, says things like "are you still cross with me" and I don't really know what to do next.

It took me such courage to say the things I said and now I am going to have to say them all again.

How can I keep having to hurt him?

Lupus wasn't diagnosed in the end and the likelihood is that it has been some sort of viral infection. I still have symptoms so there are some more tests that they will do if these continue. I mentioned a hysterectomy in my previous post as well but this is on hold until October to wait and see how my body settles down after having the Mirena coil taken out.

Reading these posts now it does make me wonder about whether I haven't actually made it clear to him.

But we did talk back in April when I told him how I was feeling which was the first time I had really said anything since our bust up in 2007 (which ended in Relate counselling and his agreement to find a job). I have tried really hard in the last few years to find a way to make myself want to be with him. I thought I had made the decision when I talked to him at the end of June (he did hear me because he was "gutted and devastated") but it seems that he is now just blanking it all out and it leaves me in the position I am in now - still questioning my own decision (and whether I really meant it) and no further forward.

Shit - I've just had the conversation. It was so hard and I feel rubbish and guilty and really mean and all those things. But I still know it's the right decision. Just it's so bloody hard.

Oh, wow, malinkey, you did? You said what you really mean? Congrats!

Realise you might be feeling a bit shell-shocked. Just wanted to say ...

malinkey - well done on having the courage to speak to your OH.

BTTDB - how are you now?

I am in the same boat. A month ago I suggested to DH that we have a trial seperation for some space - we've had problems for a long time and have been in relate a few times. This last time has been going on for about 4 months now.
Every time I say how bad it is, I get a flurry of activity for a while then it reverts to how it was.
Our last session on Tuesday took a very small step forward in that we both admitted to thinking about seperation.
However, since then he is acting as though it's all fixable if he just does a little more.
ItsGraceAgain has hit the nail on the head for me - his actions do not convey that he understands how tired and weary I am of all the lack of support over the years, the lack of responsibility etc.
We go back to relate in 10 days and I think I will be reiterating the same message. Like you though, I need to not be quite so nice and make my words very clear.

Thanks Grace and scarlotti. Yes, I did! I didn't say everything that I could say but I did tell him I don't love him any more and that a lot of that has to do with his behaviour. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders - now it's out in the open there's no taking that back.

But, I think it's going to be a long road. He's all over the place and I do feel shell shocked. He's gone to stay at a friend's tonight so I'm sitting here with a big glass of wine and am looking forward to sleeping on my own. Phew.

Malinkey - hope you're feeling OK. You have been really brave, so pleased you're moving forward (and jealous if I'm being truthful). If he's gone to a friends then he must have taken it seriously.

I made the decision tonight to find a way to go part time at work. I have no idea at the moment how I'm going to but I've decided that the bit I am most unhappy with is that I haven't been able to be main carer for the DCs. So I'm going to change that. And I'm going to change the finances so that I don't pay for all the things for him that I pay for. I realise I have been walked all over and I'm going to stop it from now.

Maybe actions will speak louder to him than words.

BTTDD - thanks for your message. I'm exhausted, didn't sleep very well last night! He has only gone to a friend's for one night I think, I'm sure he will be back later to explain to me why I'm wrong and why everything is actually my fault. But one step at a time.

Don't be jealous - I'm really not very brave - if I can do it you can too.

Sorry I didn't reply to your earlier message - maybe your illness is down to stress. If you've been feeling like this for a long time it can have all sorts of physical effects.

Good luck with going part time and with taking control. Hopefully that'll be a start either for things to change or for you to make more decisions in the future too.

malinkey - stay strong, you've overcome the first most difficult hurdle and you're doing so well. I think if you feel such a sense of relief after you've said it all, then that speaks volumes.
Do you think he can do anything to repair the situation? What if he now starts to do all the things you want, do you think you could love him again?
I only ask as that's what's been going on here for the last months. I seem to have been getting caught up in teh scenario where I say things are bad, then I feel better for having said what I feel and so feel better. Couple that with a short lived burst of change from DH and I'm back on that rollercoaster again.

This time I think it's terminal.

malineky - do you have any dc's?

scarlotti - yes we have one DS which is probably the only reason I haven't left earlier. But I've realised that staying together for his sake isn't going to benefit anyone in the long run as I don't want him repeating our relationship when he's older.

I really don't think our relationship can be repaired. We've been together 8 years and DS is 2. For the last few years, especially since I got pregnant (though if I'm honest it really has been the whole time) he has been pretty abusive - not as bad as a lot of the threads on here - but enough to make me miserable.

There are lots of practical things he could do to help a bit as he's been pretty useless and not done anything around the house etc - but really he would need to go to therapy for a while to address his ishoos for there to be any chance of a relationship in the future. But, nothing is ever his fault so that's never going to happen.

What are the things that would need to change for your relationship not to be terminal?

malinkey - dc's here too and like you, I suspect that's the only reason we've stayed together.
Sorry to hear you've been the recipient of abuse

For me, it's years of everything being my reponsibility - financial, dc's, house etc. He is naturally very lazy although has started to make inroads into that, but nowhere near what I would consider his share.
My feelings for him have died I think. We have had a few situations over the last few years where I desperately needed his support and for him to just take the reigns for a while and I didn't get it. That's the final straw for me - if I'm married then no-one else will step in to offer support as they don't want to tread on your DH's toes, so I'm left to get through it alone. (Situations were things like m/c)
We've done counselling a few times now and nothing ever changes for good. I suspect we have to have a break now to break the pattern, but I also suspect that would be the end of it as I'd have some time to myself and also enjoy being at home and not resent him all the time.

Doesn't look good does it!

scarlotti - sorry, didn't want to leave your post unanswered - sounds like you've been trying everything you can to resolve your situation. It's horrible trying to cope with m/c on your own, sorry to hear that.

Do you think you could get your feelings back if he was able to do all the things you'd like him to? Or is it too late even if he does those things?

I think it's already too late tbh. I am just worried about how DS1 will take it all as he's nearly 5. DS2 is only 8 months so will barely register what's happening - I do most of his care anyway.

How are you feeling today? Has your H come back from his friend's yet?

I know, it's really hard to make a decision because of worrying about the DCs. DS has been asking me all day where daddy is. Thing is I know it's for the best in the long run and I keep reading messages on here about what lessons you're teaching them - I really don't want him to end up like in a relationship like ours.

I feel all over the place today - glad that I've said it, terrified at the thought that it is over, terrified that he won't accept that it is over, worried about him being upset and angry with him for acting like he did which means that all this has had to happen at all. And of course I really want DS to have a good relationship with his dad if he can so I'm really sad that I will therefore have to spend a lot of time without him.

H did come back briefly to get some stuff and was very upset. He will come to see DS tomorrow but I don't know if he also wants to talk again. Trouble is he hasn't got anywhere else to go until we sell the flat so it's going to be a painful time until we can get that sorted.

Hang on in there, it sounds like you're making the right decision and for the right reasons. I know what you mean about reading threads on here, light bulb moments.

Sounds like your situation is difficult if you're having to sell the flat. Is he able to rent somewhere else whilst you're waiting to sell?

Do you ever get moments where you wonder whether the relationship is that bad? I get times like that - am sure it's after I've decided that I've had enough and then the doubts set in. Sigh, it's just all such a rollercoaster of emotions.

Yes, I do doubt myself - there have been periods when everything on the surface has been fine and we can talk superficially, mainly about DS, and I think what am I worrying about. And especially now, when H is being contrite and saying he will do anything to make things work.

But deep down I know that the relationship we have had has to end as it has been miserable for too long.

You never know, he might surprise me and get treatment for himself and this might be the lightbulb moment for him to change his life. But I'm not holding out any hopes.

He can't afford to rent somewhere else and we need to sell the flat as we're in debt and neither of us could afford to stay here alone. I might go and stay with a friend a few days a week if it gets unbearable but I don't think he's got anywhere he can go.

I get the same thing here re the doubts when the superficial talk happens.
I am impressed by your strength I have to say, you are being very brave in deciding what you want and sticking to your guns. Well done you.

Good that you have somewhere to go to get space if need be.

Thanks scarlotti - I'm trying to be brave but it's easy to write stuff on here - it's carrying it through that's the hard bit!

I have to say that MN has been a godsend throughout this - has really helped me process my feelings and get to this stage a lot quicker than I would have without it. Especially with sticking to my guns as I have lots of well meaning contradictory advice in RL that would probably have made me a lot more confused if I hadn't been reading stuff on here for a while. I had an initial chat with a counsellor and she was surprised by how much thinking I'd obviously been doing!

I think in a way my situation is easier than yours as there is emotional abuse and every time I doubt myself I have to remember that. Could you set yourself a deadline and say 'if he doesn't do X, Y or Z by then then I'll leave him'?

Agree, much easier to write it on here!

I wonder whether there's a bit of emotional abuse in my situation too, but I'm not sure I know what that is really. How did you work out that is what's happening with you?

We're at relate so thankfully have the support of a counsellor too, think that makes things much easier. If we do split, I'm considering going myself for a while to make sure my head is straight again.

Have set deadlines before and things haven't improved hence the situation I'm in now. It's all down to timing here, DD has been doing her gcse's so I didn't want to do anything then. DS1 starts school in Sept so I'm worried now about any major change upsetting him with that. There's always something though..

Scarlotti, sorry couldn't get back to my computer yesterday.

The emotional abuse is tricky - sometimes it's so insidious it's hard to see it for what it is. I would say in my case it's a mild version - say, about 4 or 5 out of 10 as opposed to some of the awful stories you see on here. I've spent a lot of time analysing whether or not it would be seen as abuse, but I think probably more important is how the behaviour makes you feel. Basically it comes down to the fact that the words and actions don't match up and I have spent a loooooong time feeling unsettled but have been unable to put my finger on exactly why that was.

I found these links helpful. This one lists the characteristics of a dominator versus a good partner:
www.freedomprogramme.co.uk/mrgoodbad.php

This one gives a brief description of emotional abuse:
www.counselling-directory.org.uk/mental.html

I found this one particulary helpful because it's the denying and minimising behaviours that have been so hard to cope with and to pinpoint. H is less aggressive (though he does shout a bit) but it's the other stuff that is so confusing.

The timing is always hard when you have children. DS knows something is going on and is trying desperately to get me and H together and just doesn't seem himself. I feel so guilty about this and really don't want him to be upset but I know in the long run it will be for the best.

It has taken me a long time to get to this point though, and even 2 years ago I was setting myself deadlines then letting them go by.

Sorry, this has turned into a bit of an essay!

I am not sticking up for your DH but I do think he is indenial. He is obviously no good at doing emotions and presumanbly thinks that if he carries on as he is then all will be fine again. I suspect he is terrifed but that this is the only way he knows to keep going.

I don't know what SGB means by everyone has the right to leave a relationship; well yes, we do, but we also have a responsibility to make it work if there are children involved. What about the other person's rights? Do they not have a right to stay in a relationship if that's is what they want? Especially if it legally binding and you are married. Talking about rights doesn't really get anyone anywhere outside of consumer law!

OP if you want to leave this man then you are going to have to do it- if that means moving out with your Dcs or whatever.

malnkey - thanks for the links, they are helpful. I would say I have the words and actions not matching up situation and it's been like that for 7 years now. I too have been unsettled and unhappy for a long time - but as it's hard to pinpoint have wrestled with why. I've been in and out of counselling for years to try and work out what's going on as it's always been intimated that it's my fault and that him not pulling his weight in any way is just a little aside.

Purplepeony - I don't think anyone is disagreeing that we have responsibilities to our relationships. Certainly I have got to the point now where, as the responsibility to make it work has never been shared, I am too tired to carry on. I feel drained by the constant giving over the years and now feel as though only a break will allow me to re-energise and feel like I can live life to the full again.
Surely everyone deserves that opportunity?

If you're not happy, you're not happy. Do you feel like it's your responsibility to make everything ok? Sounds like you've told him what you need to make it work - time and time again - and he hasn't listened - or rather he hasn't acted. So if we all have a responsibility to make it work as purplepeony says, then he's not fulfilling his responsibility.

I don't think in any of the posts on this thread the women haven't tried to make it work before they've got to the stage where they can't do it any more.

"You never know, he might surprise me"

"I am too tired to carry on. I feel drained by the constant giving over the years and now feel as though only a break will allow me to re-energise and feel like I can live life to the full again."

Malinkey, Scarlotti - your words ring so true with me. I've not been able to use the computer at home this weekend so I've just read the other comments you have made.

Why do we get ourselves into this? Is it because we are all essentially holding onto an impossible dream. The hope that actually they will make the change that we desperately need them to because deep down, we don't want to fail.

I've managed to get a Relate appointment now for this Wednesday to try and move things forward for us. I need him to understand and accept that there is a fundamental flaw in our relationship and that it isn't going to mend itself. At the moment, I'm still not convinced that it will ever be fixed.

Hope you're both OK?

malinkey - good post and good point re the responsibility not being fulfilled by these blokes.

BTTDB - sounds like we're all in the same boat, although some further up the river than others. I hope your relate appointment helps bring you the support and movement you need.

I have no idea why I've held on for so long, I suspect due to the dc's and not wanting them to live without their father full time. However, I think there comes a time when two parents in the house but unhappy is not as good as two parents in different houses but very happy.

Good luck for Wednesday. I hope you get a counsellor you can relate to (no pun intended!) and one you feel can help. Ours is good, and helps us cut through the quagmire and work out where we're going.

malinkey - how are you today? You still holding up?

I don't know why we do it - I guess we all have our ishoos. My childhood was pretty wacky to say the least and if you learn from your parents then actually I've got off reasonably lightly

I think there are aspects of wanting the relationship to work because of not wanting to fail - even when it's blatantly obvious it's not working - which is pretty stubborn really. And what are the reasons anyone puts up with abuse (not saying it is in your case)? Low self-esteem, the belief in romantic love being all important. I don't know. I am going to go to counselling on my own for a while to try and get my head around it.

I'm ok by the way. Just had a call from MIL which has had me in tears as she wanted to tell me she still loves me whatever happens! Just taking one day at a time at the moment as it's hard to stop thinking about it when you're still living together.

Good luck with Relate. Let us know how you get on.