hoovering or serious mental health problem

[thisishowifeel]

My h and I are separated. He suddenly became verbally and emotionally abusive this time last year. I told him that he could only come back if he sought help.

I stuck to my guns despite a lot of heartache and my own work on issues to do with my own family, who are now out of my life.

He has been seeing a psychotherapist for a couple of months, which I accept is not very long.

We have been rebuilding a relatiobship, to th point of him staying overnight. The fisrt time was fine...good even, so we thought that we would move on a step and have a holiday together, which is all booked.

This last saturday, we went to the village carnival together with the dc's

He decided that everyone was blanking him disrespecting him and believed him to be a monster akin to Gary Glitter...his words. He burst into tears in the playhround.

We went home and he just went on and on and on, saying that I had turned the entire village against him and that these were all my friends who I had poisoned to hate him and he could never come here again.

Actually people have said to me today how lovely it was to see him and how good it was that we were rebuilding things.

Saturday night got so bad, non stop, I mean I don't know how he even drew breath, ranting aout how a particular friend of mine is a prostitute (she isn't) and other stuff about all my friends and how awful they all are.. In the end I asked him to leave.

He is furious that I asked him to leave. He is refusing to come on holiday.

The following day, Sunday was ds's birthday which obviously was ruined, and dd was devastated...again.

Is he just playing all those horrible emotionally abusive games to try and isolate me again? Before he went, we never went out, I wasn't allowed on facebook and any friends I'd had in the past were always criticised until I gave up trying. Since he's gone I have even had an old friend of mine to my home!!! This has never happened when we were together.

He told me that his therapist who allegedly runs a freedom programme, had told him that I was over reacting, and me going on the freedom programme was like taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut. I don't believe that for one single moment.

A moment later he doesn't appear to remember having said these things.

Is he your common or garden abuser, or is he really rather poorly?

It sounds like both, to me (not that I'm a psych, or anything). Bursting into tears in public, and paranoid delusions?

But irrespective of which it is, I think you're moving too fast. The fact that he's still saying that "his therapist says he's fine and you're overreacting" is a HUGE red flag. The "my qualified friend/colleague thinks you're the one at fault" line is an absolute classic, and clearly states that he doesn't, in fact, think that there's anything wrong with the way he acted.

And then not remembering he said those things, that's crap, frankly. He's trying to make you doubt your sense of reality.

He's been seeing a psychotherapist for two months? But this is the therapist who says that you're overreacting and there wasn't any abuse? Either he's lying about his therapist (abusive) or his therapist is enabling his abuse. Either way, it's clearly not the case that he's sought, and is receiving, help with his issues.

Whether he's ill or just abusive, please don't go on holiday with him. I'm sure he'll turn around and agree to go under certain conditions (that you behave in certain ways, not him) - say no. It's too soon, and he's not showing any signs at ALL that he thinks he was wrong, let alone that he's going to change.

I agree with tortoise - I think he may be ill, tbh but whether he is or not, you are moving too fast. IF he is actually ill he needs to be a LOT further down the line towards recovery before you can allow him to re-enter your life in any meaningful sense.

2 months in therapeutic terms is very little, unless he is seeing the therapist daily (doubtful). If he's telling you that the therapist is saying you're over-reacting then he is either living in a fantasy world himself or he is being manipulative.

Either way, you have to draw back again. He is in no way ready to come back - things will rapidly disintegrate back to where they were before you separated if you let him back too soon - because he will STOP the therapy, thinking that it has achieved what he wanted it to - getting back with you.

So you need to re-distance yourself and set a time limit - a MINIMUM of 6months (with ongoing therapy) - to see how he's going then before you even THINK about reconsidering.

What is hoovering?

He sounds really really hard work and I agree with the others that he needs to get himself properly sorted out before you even think about attempting a reconciliation.

Oh bloody hell, thisis, it just goes on, doesn't it?! I think you're going to have to get ALL the crazy fuckwits out of your life, however much you love (a version of) (some of) them

Listen, my ex did something remarkably similar around the time we split, and a couple of times afterward. I thought he was going doolally due to our divorce, etc, etc - and this is what he told everybody else, garnering much sympathy & licence for it.

I realised what it really was when he did it in front of my best friend one night. It was the real him, magnified hundreds of times for effect. He is a really nasty bastard.

If your H had stopped at the paranoid delusions, I would have been more inclined to think he was having a genuine 'episode'. My advice would still have been: Cancel the holiday; avoid, avoid, avoid! Given that he went on to blame you for it all, I suspect he knew exactly what he was doing even though it was insane. Which makes him a malicious loony, who wants to control you to a loony extent, in loony ways.

Please remember this man denied the real reasons for his problems until quite recently. There is no way he's suddenly got a handle on it; not even a mad kind of a handle. It's quite possible his issues are surfacing more obviously, now he's admitted something's wrong. YOU CANNOT FIX HIM, nor should you even think about it! You've got you to fix

Look, if any other person had just done that to you, would you be thinking "Ooh, I must go on holiday with this man, and let him be close to my children"?

You are not describing a sane, rational adult. Look after yourself. Avoid.

ps: Does the village you live in begin with a T? Or did all villages have a festival last weekend?

pps: I'd hardly call that hoovering! They're supposed to be all nice during a hoovering phase!

mumblechum: hoovering

Thank you for your answers. I kind of knew I suppose.

Yes Grace, it begins with T, but I guess there are loads of carnivals that weekend.

He sent me a text about five weeks ago saying; "I accept that I have behaved abusively" but now has a real problem with the word. The word ABUSE seems to really wrankle with him....well it would wouldn't it?

It "wrankled" me somewhat too. I need to remember being called a bully, an old ugly hasbeen, a pathological liar with a personality disorder etc etc etc. I need to remember being locked out of parts of our home, of hiding emails from him im case they upset him, of him refusing to answer the phone to my clients, of accusing ME of keeping HIM a prisoner.

I sent him Lundy Bancrofts list of things that show real improvement, and that made him even crosser. I added....this is what I want to see and hear from you, and until such time, I know that NOTHING has changed. I asked him if this is what his dad did to his mum which kept her on librium for half her life.

Saturday was a nightmare and I don't want to be in it.

He's not got away with what he's trying to do, and in the meantime, the kids suffer.

I will go away with the kids, without him. Why should hey lose out? They've has enough already. I'll make sure the community plod, who has been so good to me over this, knows that we are away so he can keep an eye on the house.

I had a shit night, feeling gutted and angry and a bit scared of the future. Thank you all for being there.
x

The more I write this out the more other really tine things are ringing bells. (MN)

Him saying that the kids weren't saying please and thank you as much as they used to. Obviously bollocks...of course they do. That standards are lax as I allow them to have their breakfast in the playroom in front of the telly and not at the table....Oh evil mother that I am Oh fuck off h. My kids are ace. I went to the outstanding achievement awards last hight at the high school because my son had won a prize. So ner! Terrible mum my arse. I remember, that's how it gets you....tiny insignificant things that you let go for a quiet life. Not any more.

Forgive the language but it helps.

Yes, I'm sure that part of his current plan is to show you that you're not coping without him (kids going to pot, etc).

Glad you're going on holiday, and good idea to inform the police. Sorry it's so hard. But it's easier to stick to your guns now then to let him back in and have to start all over again.

You're doing well.

There was a flurry of text messages yesterday eveing.

He sent one saying "I've failed", so I reffered him to the last point on the Lundy Bancroft list, which says that self pity is not on.

The conversation ended with me saying that I was obviously wasting my time, to which he replied "yes", so I said, it's over then.

I know he'll be back though.

I feel like emailing the therapist to say how distressed I am that she thinks I am overplaying what has happened. I actually believe that h is lying about this. I don't believe that any therapist would make such a judgement on someone who they have never met. Any up to date therapist...which she is, and nhs registered, would be pretty au fait with the nature of these men.

I know that she is trying to make him angry. My friend (who knows about such things) says that this is deliberate in order to see the real attitudes lurking under all his personas. That sounds right to me, but she's not getting there, and he seems to be proud of this ubercontrol he has over his anger.

It seems to me though that he gets into these "states" and just makes wilder and wilder statements and assertions, and that actually when he's like this, he is completely out of control

On Saturday evening he didn't notice that I had completely switched off and was staring blankly at a cupboard door. I asked hi yesterday if he had noticed that I had "left the room" I know that this hurt him, but it was straight talking like this that got him into therapy in the first place.

He may not even be seeing a therapist. That business about everyone hating him may not be a genuine delusion, it sounds to me more like him telling you to shut up about his abuse of you and not reach out for help.
You really do need to keep a distance from this knobber as much as possible. He will never put your best interests first because he sees himself as the important one and you and the DC are just minor players in the Story Of Him.

thisishowifeel - therapists are not immune to the lies these people tell. It might be an outright lie, what he told you she said, or it might be a twisting of the truth - because she has been conned by his lies. It's a very difficult one to deal with indeed - you could email his therapist but then you run the risk of her telling him you have done so and all the fallout from that. Or it might work in your favour and she realises what kind of pathological idiot she has for a client. But you cannot know in advance which way it will go, so probably best to stay well out of it.

In the end - what she says or doesn't say about you is not relevant to anything - it's not her you're might end up living with again, is it? If he comes out of therapy believing it's all your fault - then he's out of your life.
Whether that comes from him or his therapist is neither here nor there - the truth is that it is NOT your fault - and unless he accepts that, you don't want him back.

Am so with everyone else who's posted so far.

Right now, whether he is genuinely mentally ill or playing a part doesn't really matter. He has done so much absolute shit to you, done his best to ruin your life, career, friendships, that the further and faster you can run away from him the better. Whatever his issues, it will take years of heavy duty therapy to sort out before he can begin to be a decent partner - and that's if he genuinely co-operates, which right now he clearly isn't. An untrained partner is in the worst position to sort him out. Love doesn't conquer all; it gets in the way of seeing things clearly.

Please, do yourself a favour: stop treating him like a rational human being. He will only repay you with more betrayal and cruelty. It's not only bad for you, it's awful for the children - especially when he uses them to get at you. And do him a favour and stop sheltering him from the consequences of his - madness? badness? - whatever it is, as he won't get proper help while he keeps playing this game with you.

Run away, honey, you're too nice for this. I don't mean that patronisingly, like you're too wet to handle it or something (not sure anyone on the planet could handle it). I mean you are a good person and you do not deserve this shit, and I so wish you'd love yourself more than you do this charming, evil loony.

Well I am quite happy to go on holiday without him, which is good.

I was comfortable with telling him to leave on saturday. Also good.

These are things that would have utterly floored me before.

I don't want my babies to hear him ranting at me, without there being consequences. There were consequences, so the lesson is that unnacceptable behaviour will not be tolerated.

I think I may do some colouring in with bluebell (the name I gave my inner child) just so as she doesn't have scary abandonement crises!

sounds like my ex...the lines between genuine MH issues and abuse can be thin...

agree with others - if yyu genuinely wnat him back in your life then you need to move a lot more slowly....

dont book holidays with him ; dont have expectations of him at all.

i think you better off ahving your own life with dcs and aranging your own holidays/special days -if he is "well" in good mood - fine he participates; if not is no loss....

" xxx told me that you.... " is kinda controlling isnt it? my ex did that..."well my cousin says you are horrible person..."

not sure why you want him in your life really?? - you could keep him at arms length as dad to kids; maybe even have some joint day time activities, but why have him back in your house and bed?

he isnt "cured" is he?

and yes i get the picking on things i doing "wrong" with the dcs.... but like you they doing fine at school

dont be deceived.... best to keep him out of your emotional life, cut those conversations, dont get involved in his therapy... if he having a good day, fine. enjoy as you would a day out with a friendly a colleague; but if you let him into your head/heart again you will suffer...

let some years go by first...

sounds like my ex...the lines between genuine MH issues and abuse can be thin...

agree with others - if yyu genuinely wnat him back in your life then you need to move a lot more slowly....

dont book holidays with him ; dont have expectations of him at all.

i think you better off ahving your own life with dcs and aranging your own holidays/special days -if he is "well" in good mood - fine he participates; if not is no loss....

" xxx told me that you.... " is kinda controlling isnt it? my ex did that..."well my cousin says you are horrible person..."

not sure why you want him in your life really?? - you could keep him at arms length as dad to kids; maybe even have some joint day time activities, but why have him back in your house and bed?

he isnt "cured" is he?

and yes i get the picking on things i doing "wrong" with the dcs.... but like you they doing fine at school

dont be deceived.... best to keep him out of your emotional life, cut those conversations, dont get involved in his therapy... if he having a good day, fine. enjoy as you would a day out with a friendly a colleague; but if you let him into your head/heart again you will suffer...

let some years go by first...

I think he may well have MH issues, actually. But I'm not sure that's the issue.

But, honestly, the way these manifest just says to me that he is not someone you can weave so closely into your life that your health, happiness, and security is connected with him.

Sorry.

Do you have a lingering belief that if it's MH, you need to take care of him, and be supportive? That's a sweet thing to think, but unfortunately, because of his role as your (ex?)p and father to the dc, I can't see it working.

His mental health issues seem so strongly around control, and paranoia, that I think he is going to need to be a lot more stable before you could have him in those roles in your life. And he may never get there.

Fwiw, I think the line between MH and abuse is shaky. Abusing other people should be seen as unjustifiable, psychologically troubled behaviour. But, as we know, a fair few (mainly men) indulge in a continuum of this behaviour. so in some sense, it's (almost) normalised. Or in a weird, wobbly, in-between land. And is it (fully) curable? Possibly not, in a society that still seems to value women and children less than men.

The thing is, his behaviour, whether classifiable as MH or abuse, is not safe for you or your dc. It isn't going to nourish you or your dc. On those grounds, you can't really bring him back into a relationship with you.

It sounds like an awful situation to be in.

And the thing about a therapist is that they will be doing a lot of mirroring, to try and get the therapist to see things about themselves. so when he says "the therapist thinks this or that", it may not be what "the therapist" thinks at all. Though he may well have a bad therapist.

D'oh. "to try and get the person in therapy to see things about themselves."

I've had him on the phone this morning. I have said that there is nothing I can do to help as I am too close, and I have to maintain very solid personal boundaries for myself.

I am sure that he is seeing this therapist, and her website makes her "feel" like she's clued up, all up to date with training, nhs registered etc.

He has backtracked completely on the "my therapist said that you......" stuff.

I said that he needs to work on himself with her help, and to start reading, educating himself etc. I can't do that for anyone but me.

It's funny, the black and white, good v bad stuff, colours his whole outlook, very extreme left wing politics and union stuff, as well as his personal life. His friends all good, my friends all bad. His dad and brother are exactly the same.

It's hard when someone who has been an intimate, and sometimes great fun, person bursts into tears in public, to not feels empathy/ sympathy/ sorrow etc. And to see such extreme paranoia.

Once again the insight on here is wonderful....thank you.

it is hard... when they cry on your doorstep saying "you can help me"...

animula is right - one can get sucked into a caring role....also they feed off any and all contact, even if you think it's been engative conversation where you "told him xxxx" - they feed on it as "support" and "caring"....(narcissistic?)

but - for me it helps to repeat to self (and i've learned a lot on here) :

he is an adult

his MH is his responsibility

his behaviour is his responsibility

he is not my child

I have myself and my dcs to consider

the dcs have no choice - i do have a choice

my (mental) health comes first so i can continue to look after the dcs

he has displayed beahviour which is abusive -regardless of his MH issues

our relationship was unhealthy and is unhealthy for the DCS

he has the right to develop a good relationship with the dcs; theyahve the right to a good relationship with him; i have a duty to facilitate that as far as possible

i have the right to cut off my relationship with him - other than as co-parents

his therapy/journey is his problem - i gave of myself to him previously and i have done my time; it didnt help him; he became/was abusive; now he has to do it himself

i cannot allow his journey of self discovery to negatively affect my life/my dcs' lives

keep conversations to practical issues

you can choose to be involved with him, to be a part of his MH issues, to be involved in his therapy - or not. i think having dcs to consider makes the choice clearer.....

in fact my exP has found other people (church).

Yes, to be fair I have done those things. I have had enough to do dealing with my "interesting" mother and sisters.

I have said that it is very definitely his responsibility and there is really nothing I can do to help. I even said this morning that as I am not a qualified professional, I could make things worse for him.

I suppose I thought that him "accepting being abusive" was more progress than it actually was. That was the hoovering bit.

When he cried in the playground he didn't ask for help, just to go home, but the effect was the same I suppose. That's why I asked him to leave because it fuzzied the boundaries. That is so important to keep them rock solid. I know that now. And if he is going to improve, the more solid MY boundaries, the better it is for both of us.

Thank you again.

yes apply the broken record technique..."there is really nothing I can do to help you"

"he didn't ask for help, just to go home"

yes i had that too - "let me be with you then i will be better..."

Didn't read whole thread, only what you wrote in the beginning. so To answer your original question,

does it matter?

If he's poorly he can go to hospital. For fucks sake dump him. He is a pain in the backside and you could be drinking gin slings and laughing with a few mates instead of this crap