Archers thread #174: God it's lame! But it still limps on. Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you think Ben-meets-Zainab is on a par with Elizabeth-meets-Darcy, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @Bruisername for the title inspiration. She said God it's lame and that seemed to strike a chord with many, for some reason.

I am terrified of wasps and live in fear of encountering a hornet, so that was a tricky episode. I hope that's the last we're going to hear of them, except for confirmation that they've been nuked. [shudder]

So what do we reckon - custodial or suspended sentence for George? Will Clarrie return from Great Yarmouth or will she realise that actually life as a carer for her (presumably disabled) sister is easier than the endless and thankless drudgery at Grange Farm? Will any more tables collapse at the Village Hall?

Over to you!

I thought both Alice and Fallon were vindictive and even pulling losing Emma into it was cruel

i almost hope the character dies commit suicide and Alice and Fallon feel terribly guilty. I would rather that than have George come out broken and a new Clive. I also hope the actor has much success elsewhere

Maybe he'll go there when he comes out?

If prisons continue to be overcrowded, someone like George convicted of a non-violent offence must surely be likely to get out a bit early.

The 6:30 comedy was so bad, I relistened to PM.

Poor George, even though he's always been a stinker (until the last couple of days).

That's exactly what I thought.

I found tonight really emotionally harrowing (whereas I was pretty much unmoved last night), especially Emma's distress and George right at the end. This time I did cry.

Luckily the end of it coincided with me pulling up to the wake I'm attending, so I looked suitably downcast.

So he’ll serve 40% of that sentence @Bruisername because it’s under 4 years. I wonder if there’ll be an early release tagging situation? I really hope they get him back close so we can hear visits and the actor doesn’t go silent for 8 months…

As an aside, I've never understood the point of serving sentences concurrently. I mean, it presumably doesn't make any practical difference (i.e. you don't get any harsher treatment or longer time per day locked in), so in effect you might as well not give the shorter sentence. Does anyone know what the point of it is?

Me too. Prisons are awful places and he doesn't have the street smarts to come out unscathed.

You are right about the risk of suicide but as I'm sure you know prisons are also awash with drugs so an addiction problem developing is also a likely outcome.

I did think tonight's episode showed how hard legal aid lawyers work and how valuable they are.

Our prison system is totally awful. I wish there were real political appetite for reform. Appointing Lord Timpson is a grand start, but I wonder how much popular support there will be, let alone funding, for going some way to a Norwegian model of rehabilitation. It would be a massive improvement even if the present system delivered everything it is in theory supposed to, in terms of education etc.

And of course there is zero point in sending someone like George to prison in the first place.

I don't know if I'm allowed to mention this charity, which I've supported for years. https://howardleague.org/

He'll only be in for a few months then he'll be out with a tag.
He deserved to be sent down.

I definitely do not want a 'taking his own life' SL, and I don't want George written out.

He should not have been sent down for driving dangerously.

Every time I've been to a Timpson's shop I have been impressed by the staff. Always polite and helpful. There's a better cobbler near me, but that's brilliant.

An interesting answer given on Reddit:

There's a couple of reasons:

1. Practicality. Our prisons are overflowing and we are doing everything we can to try and avoid chucking people in prisons and have been for years. That may not be the right thing to do, but it doesn't help when everyone wants more prisons built but doesn't want to pay more taxes nor have the prisons built near them.
2. Defence against appeal. If I sentence you to 5 concurrent sentences you'd need to overturn all of them on appeal to avoid prison.
3. Principle. The idea of the justice system is to, in a rough and ready fashion, take criminals and turn them into productive members of society. We are shit at doing this, but let's just pretend for a moment that we are not shit at doing it. If a 2 year jail term is deemed necessary to turn a one time burglar into a reformed member of society, if you catch them on 5 counts of burglary, why sentence them to 10 years? They will be reformed in 2.
4. Avoiding perverse incentives. You don't want to create perverse incentives with your justice system. For example, rape has a lower sentence than murder, and people often say they should be the same. The problem there is you're incentivising rapists to kill their victims, because a dead rape victim can't report the issue, but a live one can. In the same vein if robbery with violence carries a 3 year jail sentence but you've robbed 10 people, that's 30 years. At that point you might as well become a murderer too.

Your Reddit answer shows everything ChatGPT misses!

we almost need a two tier system - Norwegian style rehab and then prisons for those who commit violent and sex crimes

I always thought Longford obsession with the moors murderer set back prison reform

I’m with @DadDadDad on the dangerous driving. I can’t see how a swerve when your passenger is fighting to get the door open amounts to “dangerous driving”. But he pleaded guilty to it so has to be sentenced for it. But it was too severe a sentence even according to

Judge was dead right on severity of the perverting the course of justice offence, and the sentence was fair but totally unproductive as so many custodial sentences are.

Government webpage says 50% served - where does the 40% come from?

There’s going to be deep rifts in Ambridge - how can Emma ever feel ok towards Fallon after that victim statement - not least the dishonesty of “I was pregnant and then I wasn’t. I can’t say it was because of the accident but my husband thinks it was”

This is going to cause huge ructions in Ambridge - George behaved both badly and stupidly but he's young the Grundys and the Carters are going to find it very hard to have civil relations with lots of people when they are hurting so badly.

As to the sentencing I don't expect Fallon's statement altered the decision of the judge but it will affect how Emma feels about Fallon. Bridge Farm will be a stressful place.

As others have said Perverting the Course of Justice can carry much longer sentences due to the need to maintain honesty in the justice system and the lawyer will have warned them: www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/crown-court/item/perverting-the-course-of-justice/

Reducing minimum sentences to 40% is a very recent measure introduced to deal with a shortage of prison places. George will benefit from that though, the measure is unlikely to be lifted during his sentence.

If he has to serve 40% of two years, that's a bit under ten months.

Government webpage says 50% served - where does the 40% come from?

The policy only changed this month, so the website probably hasn't been updated. There are exceptions for certain categories of crime. And, of course, you have to behave yourself in prison to be eligible.

I agree with @PatChaunceysFruitCake that drug addiction would be another realistic outcome for George. I would find that it a suicide SL too harrowing to listen to.
A prison sentence serves no purpose other than punishment in George's case - many people would presumably say that is purpose enough. If the aim is to help him develop into an adult who contributes to society, close supervision and mentoring on probation would be far more beneficial, but the probation service is too overwhelmed at the moment to provide that consistently.

Well those saying it’s lenient are clearly harder than me. I don’t think I could do a week without cracking. I doubt me similarly aged to George kids could either.

@BitOutOfPractice I don't think many people are saying it's lenient just 2 years is at the lower end of the sentencing guidelines for this particular crime.
Judges are pretty constrained by these guidelines.

As you say prison will be a brutal place for George and as @MereDintofPandiculation says most custodial sentences are counter productive and I'd add very expensive to society.

It’s a shame that sentences like these basically ‘finish cooking’ a first time offender, shame it can’t be a good chunk of community service which might actually have been useful and more interesting to listen to when ongoing.

It’s weird as I know he did an awful thing and that alcoholism is a disease etc etc etc but there has been an awful lot of history being re-written about Alice hitting rock bottom and Martha being impacted because of the crash. Hmmm.

That was supposed to say “my similarly aged to George dc…”

Yep - alive and fallon both rewriting history

Just caught up! Fallon's victim statement made me 🤔