Archers thread #157: How sharper than a serpent’s tooth it is to have a thankless clan! Discuss The Grundys here. Bicker about The Archers as well if you like.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @OverArmour for the idea of making it clear in the title many of us are inveterate bickerers!

Now over to you, as we are about to eat and I won't hear tonight's offering till later ....

Exactly.

And why should she? Though dying, he was still evil to her and served no time for it.

I know that’s not a very Christian answer, but I can imagine in Helen’s shoes that I would find forgiveness very difficult.

She could have just sent Rex round in his taxi to put it through the door if she was worried about the post.

Also, it is possible for her to forgive him but still keep her boundaries / seek to minimise any further harm to herself, even if only for her boys' sake.

What a horrible thought. She'd never be able to bring herself to watch those videos again, they would be forever tainted by association with him.

Exactly Passe.

Was there any reference to Will’s 40th birthday this year? I can’t remember.

I cannot imagine giving one iota of compassion to anyone who subjected me to abuse over a long period. Or a short period to be honest.

It seems to me that Helen cant keep away from Rob.
I would think in Real Life that anybody that had been so badly abused like her would have not have had anything to do with him from the moment he told her he was ill.
It just dosnt ring true. She also didnt put up much of a fight with the nurse either. I find her very rude to her mum, but Pat is interfering even though she is very worried about Helen, but cant say no to a slightly pushy nurse.
I hope she dosnt suffocate Rob because we will have months and months of her slightly going mad and Pat asking if she is ok and telling Tony how worried she is about Helen.

That might have been an interesting story, @RegimentalSturgeon - but isn’t suffocation a fairly obvious thing to prove?

Googled:

Throughout the investigation of a death by suffocation or smothering the pathologist will look for the tell tale signs: the bloodshot eyes, the high levels of carbon dioxide in the blood and will also look for bruising around the nose and mouth and may even collect trace evidence such as hairs and fibres from around the nose and mouth of the deceased.

I would hope Helen’s watched enough TV to know this, even vaguely. (And really, what benefit would there be to her in taking such action, even if it were undetectable?) Although perhaps Rob is in a state where bloodshot eyes and raised blood carbon dioxide are already present? (No idea, just wondering how the story might work.)

Really hope the SWs aren’t planning for Rob to torture Helen (and us) from beyond the grave … I mean, he will, inevitably - via Jack, inheritance, stipulations regarding his funeral, Miles, whatever - but they cannot possibly put Helen on trial again.

Surely?

Suffocation is easy to determine if it’s looked for, @SomethingMustBeScaringThemAway . But assuming the body is not discovered immediately, the subject was unable to struggle much, if at all, the body not discovered immediately and the victim expected imminently to be handing in his dinner pail, no one is going to be looking very hard. A PM wouldn’t be automatic. Also, TA.
As to not putting Helen on trial again, I did say ‘no one believes her’

Surely Helen won't do that?!!!
Can we just go back to the Grundy's being awful, for sweet relief?!

I know that’s not a very Christian answer, but I can imagine in Helen’s shoes that I would find forgiveness very difficult

I certainly wasn’t talking about forgiveness alongside the hand-holding service but showing some compassion could actually help in the future. It would take more strength than just walking away and I think it could almost release her and allow her to enjoy the freedom his premature departure has given her. She is not a nasty person and the risk is that she would otherwise feel quietly guilty for being pleased that he has died.

Incidentally, I don’t think she will entertain the pillow request. That would ring alarm bells in even Helen’s head…

I suppose him asking her to kill her shows us how inhumane end of life care can be these days

I don’t really understand the reason behind this SL.
Are we being shown that someone in that position of abuse will always be in control of their victim? Helen clearly feels compelled to be there with him, helpless to leave. Why not just leave?! It’s not as though Rob can do anything to stop her.

She’s hardly a maternal being, so I can’t believe it to be her wish to help or care for someone else. 🙄

It certainly can be - but let’s not forget Rob has refused the option of going into a hospice.

I recall an elderly family friend was in one for some months before she died. It was a surprisingly jolly environment (for her at least). Friends and family visited every day, her room was full of cards and flowers and laughter and lottery tickets. And of course there were dedicated staff for pain management and end of life care. She was ill and sometimes in pain, and knew she was dying - but it wasn’t an awful way to go.

I don’t know if they’re all like that, obviously - but Rob doesn’t have to be dying largely alone. There’s an element of performative masochism in moving to a strange village, alone …

None of it makes any sense at all:

• why not get someone else to deliver the card?
• No-one in the absolute final stages of their life would be left alone at home, when it is known that death is near. There would be services there, carers etc.

The writers are trying to ramp up the drama - unsuccessfully. It just looks silly.

Isn't the point of this storyline that her previous attack on him (for which she went to prison) was not premeditated? It was a spur of the moment him or me type scenario - he forced the knife into her hand and then goaded her to stab herself. Last night he was asking her kill him, but she was in no danger - I can't imagine that having had time to think about it and remembering her time in prison she would be even slightly tempted to put him out of his misery. She knows he's dying fairly imminently - I'm not sure I'd have too much sympathy for him having to wait it out. It does seem that she hasn't been able to keep away from him - she could have posted the card or just put it through the letterbox. It's his own fault he's living on his own in Penny Hassett (or wherever he is) - he made a conscious choice to move there so he could be as close as possible to Helen without breaking the terms of the restraining order. I wonder if she keeps feeling the need to go there just to check he's still ill (and eventually to see him dead) for her own peace of mind. That's why she won't leave until Miles or the nurse or someone turns up to take over the death watch.

There’s an element of performative masochism in moving to a strange village, alone … In a nutshell.

I was waiting for Rob to pull out a knife and stab Helen. No such luck.☹️

I thought Lillian gave very sensible advice particularly about not being defined by one's children, alcoholism etc.

I had been hoping that Alice and Chris would get back together now that Alice is on a more even keel. She said at the time, when she had just started to get sober, that she it took all her effort to concentrate on keeping clean; she didn't have time for a relationship. i can understand that reasoning. I thought she was very sensible. It would take all her will power to stay sober and look after Martha, not enough to sustain a romantic relationship.

The first part is clearly just for the drama. IRL, Helen could have persuaded Joy, or even Kirsty or her parents to deliver the card. As much as they don't think Jack should have contact with Rob, they would hand deliver the card to the door rather than let Helen go and get sucked in. I take it Helen doesn't know that Tony was at the baptism. He'd probably be the most obvious person to send.

The second point, I disagree. People with loving families do try to make sure there's someone around. But health services are stretched and carers, even specialist cancer carers, have multiple house calls to make. They can't afford to potentially get into disciplinary proceedings at work because they stayed with one patient just so that he wouldn't be alone, and thus neglected everyone else on their list. They will do the job they are contracted to do then leave. They're not expected to compensate for the fact that the person's family are absent or that they have refused hospice care. If the patient is dead by the next time they call, they will act appropriately then, they can't hang around waiting for him to die (especially since Rob didn't sound as though his death was likely to be within the next few minutes).

The only thing I think Rob has done right is wanting to die away from Bruce. A lonely flat in a strange area isn't ideal, but it's better than having to die listening to more abuse from your parent.

I'm still wondering what happened to Miles. Either Rob lied to the nurse and he was never intending to come that night, or he was coming but Rob somehow contacted him after Helen arrived and told him not to, or it was all some incredible coincidence that he was intending to come but something else detained him (and meant that he couldn't answer his phone).

I wondered the opposite thing about the suffocation: whether Helen would refuse to do it but nevertheless be suspected of it. I don't think they would go through a whole trial again (particularly if a post mortem concluded that he wasn't in face suffocated), but there might be enough suspicion hanging over her to cause some drama, e.g. with Jack, 'you killed my dad!' - unlikely because you'd need a speaking character to carry it, or with Henry or Miles.

Not sure that it does, really. It's his choice to be at home, isn't it? Didn't they say he'd refused to go into a hospice?

Can you suffocate yourself with a pillow? Would he do that hoping Helen will get the blame? Ugh I hate this SL.