Thread 99 (yes, 99!): Join us for spirited discussions of The Archers and its Top Blokes, whether you're Team Elizabeth (low spirits), Team Kate (Spiritual Home) or Team Toby (spirits =gin)

[Bittermints]

Thanks due to @PseudoBadger for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads and to @DadDadDad for being our resident statistician and keeping the ball rolling when Pseudo stepped back a bit. Thanks also to all those who contributed to the thread title.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to be Susan's best friend or other odd unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3439443-keep-it-to-yourself-the-archers-spoilers-thread-4, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

So, to business. What a fantastic two-hander. Massive BOOP points to Alison Dowling, the scriptwriter and director (and the therapist). I had more than a small tear in my eye listening to that.

I'm another one with a vote of thanks to chemenger for all that information on the last thread about distilling. I should know some of that because I went on a tour of the whisky distillery near where my parents live but I've forgotten most of it except how delicious the end product is.

MereDint I have no conscious memory of Phil and have never taken the 11+ but I want to respond because of the other thread . When I heard that I assumed Phil had considered David to be a child who generally didn’t pay attention or apply himself at school and had in that sense ‘failed’ due to a lack of effort (not my view I hasten to add!). Certainly I think there are parents who punish children who fail to live up to their expectations as though it were wilful when it often isn’t. David’s the oldest, isn’t he, so maybe Phil had particular expectations.

I don’t think parents got annoyed with schools in those days (in the way they do now) and I’m guessing schools didn’t generally do a huge amount to prepare for the test?

Elizabeth is 7-8 years younger than David, so her recollections of Phil's reaction may be inaccurate- or she may have been a little pitcher with long ears who heard conversations David didn't.

Clarrie must surely be able to see what's going on with Mia - but maybe for her, that's what girls and women do. I thought she was doing quite well at trying to warn Mia off from a crush on Ruari - methinks the young lady protested too much.

David’s the oldest, isn’t he, so maybe Phil had particular expectations.

Kenton and Shula are about a year older. But if they - particularly feckless Kenton - passed the 11+ then I suppose the expectation for David (diligent but dopey) were inappropriately set.

Shula IIRC didn't pass the 11+.
Kenton and Shula are older than David by a few years I think. Elizabeth is a few years younger than David.

That’s interesting, I must have just assumed David was the oldest because he was farming the land. If anyone can be bothered to explain how that happened I’d be grateful!

Clarrie’s “good girl” to Mia made me sigh. Socialisation in action!

Apologies, but I am going to jump in feet first and derail this thread.

I didn't spot it when I saw the trailer, but have just taken DD(11) to see 'The Kid Who Would be King' at the cinema.

Josh has been moonlighting - he is young Merlin (Patrick Stewart has a whale of a time being the older version). I thought he was rather good in it, so I fear his tractor 'eBaying' days are numbered.

thisido I think the child who shows interest in farming gets the farm.

Hence why Adam & Debbie have more of a stake than Kate and Alice. Ruari's interest yet to be seen. If he stops boarding he may show interest in farming to muddy the waters even more.

Shula loved horses (she worked in Estate management for Rodway and Watson before the stables), Kenton was a waster (was he the one who did antiques with Nelson?, merchant navy, child in Oz etc), Lizzy was wild (expelled from boarding school, then ice creams with Nigel and Lower Loxley). David showed an interest and committed to the farm. To keep things fair to the others there were the golden shares if Brookfield was ever sold (cf the move up North angst). I don't know whether these golden shares can be passed on though ...

David's children. Pip is a farmer. Josh is more of an entrepreneur. Ben is showing interest in sheep.

Oi, what are you saying about Ben?

Here you go thislido

The Brookfield inheritance.

Mike didn’t Lizzie say in therapy that both Kenton and Shula had passed the 11+? (I may have mis-remembered).

Another example of them regretting the firing of the archivist?

didn’t Lizzie say in therapy that both Kenton and Shula had passed the 11+?

I thought so. And Shula's dreams of being a vet were thwarted by having done the wrong A levels - back then, I don't think very many kids who'd failed the 11+ got to do A levels.

If only Kenton had passed then Lizzie wouldn't have felt such a failure.

Similar happened in my farming family. 4 children. The girl wasn't considered as a potential for taking over. There was a particular time when one of them needed to step up and start playing a major role owing to parents' illness. Eldest son was taking exams/away, youngest was too young, so the middle one did it and then naturally carried on ever since. It's different from the large landowner primogeniture, I think, in that you need a child who is willing to take on the day to day work of farming and that won't always be the oldest.

As for Lizzie, what she said in therapy was not that she had directly heard Phil's reaction to David's 11+ results but that David had warned her that their dad had 'hit the roof' when he failed. She didn't say whether he told her that at the time or when she was preparing for it herself, or at some time inbetween. It was before my time, so I don't know what Phil's actual reaction was.

You're right, Jessie, Lizzie did say that Kenton and Shula both passed.

She did. Then again, bedrooms magically appear or disappear in Ambridge. Shula was considered to be not very bright as a child, and I don't think she did A-levels.
I know many farming families where it wasn't the eldest son who took on the farm. The Pip taking over the farm is not IMO realistic - girls are pushed to get an education and the boys encouraged to farm, unless there are several boys.

If I was Phil it wouldn't have been David's academic success that I worried about, his emotional intelligence is much more of a concern.

I think that the idea of Pip taking over the farm is entirely realistic because Ruth is a farmer, not a farmer’s wife. So Pip already has a female farming role model. The logical next step in the evolution of family farm management style is for Pip to be the farmer but married to/settled with a man who is not a farmer.

I wasn't listening at the time of Shula's vet dreams (see what I did there??) but why did she have to be thwarted? Could she not have done different A levels elsewhere? I"m afraid I am retrospectively constructing a narrative, to fit with my rather critical view of Shula, in which she accepted as final and inevitable something that could, in fact, be changed. And then wanted admiration and points for being all brave and martyred-with-a-hint-of-wistful about it.

I agree with the role model bit, but it just doesn't usually happen.

Has Rawsie been baptised yet? I'm wondering whether Jill will have the ab-dabs over her being called Grace and Leonard will fuck off because she's obviously still tied up with Phil

Thank-you, this lido

I’m guessing schools didn’t generally do a huge amount to prepare for the test? We had "IQ lessons". Great fun! a whole lesson doing an IQ test, no effort required whatever. Must have been grim for those who couldn't do IQ tests - whether the lessons did anything to help, I don't know. 7 out of the 21 in our class passed, which was a good number when there was a "quota" of 10% of "county" children (compared with 30% of city children (it was a city funded school) - which really makes a nonsense of the idea the 11 plus was about determining which type of education you were more suited to. As did the fact that there were approximately twice the number of places available for boys as for girls. Sorry. End of rant.)

Madcats - it takes more than that to derail a thread!

I did the 11+ in 1966 they didn't even tell us that's what it was. No obvious preparation either.

Rosie hasn't been christened yet.

birdsdestiny We didn't have emotional intelligence in the 60's*. It was kill or be killed ...

*Always a shock to realise David is older than me.

Well he is doing well on the killing front, surely it's about time he was involved in another death if the last one was 8 years ago.

No time for boys, Mia? Hmmm

Is it just me, or is Emmur a bit too concerned about Willyum?

Just as an aside, there was a guest on Woman's Hour this morning who sounded exactly like Rooooth! It was uncanny

Is Alan's idea going to be about sepsis awareness or Young Carers? I too groaned at Clarrie's 'good girl' comment.

Don't get me started on CallMeRuss