Thread 98 - Discuss The Archers here! If you don’t give a ha’porthfor Pip come and add your two penn’orth - we do enjoy a bit of change counting (especially if it’s in old money)

[Bittermints]

Many thanks to @LilianGish for the title (again - she has real gift for this!). Further thanks due to @PseudoBadger for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads and to @DadDadDad for being our resident statistician and keeping the ball rolling when Pseudo stepped back a bit.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to be Susan's best friend or other odd unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3439443-keep-it-to-yourself-the-archers-spoilers-thread-4, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

(Change counting references arose specifically out of a nostalgic discussion on the previous thread, if anyone is intrigued.)

that still doesn't mean she should stay in an unhappy marriage No, it doesn't but it does mean she should face up to what her religion actually means to her. And if she's still thinking of herself as devout CofE (and let's face it, decisions she's made in the past suggest she takes church a lot more seriously than most church attenders) then she should start thinking seriously about her actions over this marriage and whether her behaviour really is in the spirit of what she promised. She has shown absolutely no sign of having thought about her behaviour and her "beliefs" and whether they are consistent.

However I think she was cruel in the way she just dropped it on him without even so much as a period of marriage counseling. Yes, this, absolutely. And without being able to give him a good reason other than being bored.

If the marriage vows went "....until I no longer find this relationship exciting" what sort of faith would any of us have in the "commitment" shown by our spouse?

I don't see the point of Shula and Alistair's split. From both their points of view, neither has gone on to do anything they couldn't do while married and from a scriptwriting point of view their split hasn't exactly precipitated a huge plot twist. They both seem to be tonking along in exactly the same dull way as before (with a bit of running and life drawing thrown in). I suppose I shouldn't complain - St Smugula has remained in character throughout (apart from the decision to ask for a divorce in the first place).

Sprouting Yes I thought exactly the same about Shula and her' lots of time on her hands'.

Iam retired run and redecorate a house and largish garden and am caring for DM intermittently. Apart from being on here more than I should be [blush ] I haven't enough time on my hands. !

Agree, Lillian

Unless it’s part of a longer-term plot development?

I listened to the film this morning and am now a bit confused.
By Friday, JD was dressing up her anger at Brian pleading Not Guilty as moral outrage. But at the beginning of the week her whole concern was dislike at being the centre of Village Gossip. I don't think that she is being being totally honest about the decision to plead; I think that her main concern is to get it over and done with, she doesn't seem too bothered that Brian will end up with a criminal record.

Shula didn't end her marriage because it wasn't exciting she ended it because she didn't love him. There are divorced Christians in churches up and down the country, what should shula do about the fact she is divorced, stop going to church?

what should shula do about the fact she is divorced, stop going to church? It's not the divorcing that's the problem, it's that she cast the marriage aside so easily.

I think JD is resigned to the fact that Brian will get a criminal record, because the simple fact is that he's guilty. She's also rightly concerned that he's completely closing his eyes to reality in pleading not guilty, that he will inevitably be convicted, and therefore he will not only incur large legal costs utterly pointlessly but will get a much heavier sentence; plus it will do even more damage to his reputation locally. Imagine the indignation the likes of Kirsty and Emmur will stir up if he pleads not guilty, and the way they will crow when he is convicted.

I don't think she did cast it aside easily though, I think what they were showing was the slow disintergration of a marriage drip by drip, and shulas inability to fully express how she was feeling because she is ...Shula. Repressed, not that at ease with expressing emotions etc. I thought it was decent writing, and maybe quite realistic. A colleague of mine has just divorced, she is trundling on living her life, no big drama, no affair, no trip round the world.
I think I defend Shula too much, am now worried about what that might mean

she doesn't seem too bothered that Brian will end up with a criminal record

He committed a serious crime - he should have a criminal record. I think Jenny is also worried about the increased risk of his going to prison if he pleads "not guilty" and also worried about the increased financial cost which ultimately falls on the children.

Jenny can be silly and snobby at times but she has always put the children (including Ruairi) first in any decision - including staying with Brian through all his philandering.

birds I see what you're saying, and agree to some extent. It was just the final bit, no "I haven't been happy for a long while, I can't go on like this, our relationship needs to change" conversation. She may feel she gave him opportunity to change, but she didn't tell him he needed to. Nor has she even given him a convincing reason why she needs to break up his marriage. (I know it's hers too, but she's treating it as if it's just her marriage, not a marriage between the two of them). We're talking about the woman who changed her place of worship because she didn't approve of the vicar taking a wife from a different religion - if that's so important to her, then why wasn't giving her marriage vows the best possible shot also important to her?

Yes, I know her Christianity is a bit iffy, to say the least - lying in Rob vs sab - but I don't see why that should make me any less condemnatory of the way she's scrapped the marriage without any sort of discussion with Alistair.

Oooh - I'd forgotten all about Shula's lying in the Knob and the sab incident. Parallels with Brian lying over the contaminated land perhaps? Knob got away with it because Shula lied for him, Brian is expecting his family to lie so he'll get away with it. Is Shula going to have more agonising to come when Brian's perjury brings it all back? I just wonder because so much of what happened in the Knob years was unresolved - the disappearance of Stefan for instance. Shula's lying seemed so uncharacteristic at the time, I wonder if it will be revisited.

Blimey! That's a lot of salt!!

I was thinking if Brine and JD are so hard-up, why don't they pull Ruararrridh out of private school?

I think that's just what will happen, echt and then he'll go to Borchester College to take his A levels with Ben.

On another tack, Pat was thoroughly unpleasant in her snobbish remarks about Lee's lack of conversation and wearing of track suits. Here wish that Helen would have some more on her wavelength reeked of class snobbery.

I genuinely thought that Pat would have learned something from the Rob situation. What happened to all that hand wringing about how they had got Rob wrong? About how much they welcomed into their home while he was horrifically abusing her daughter?

Quite glad Helen shut her down so force fully.

TBF Pat and Tony only welcomed Rob after Helen demanded that they do so. Pat bloody hated him at first.
The tracksuit comment was horrible though - he's in it for work. Lee is hardly hanging around town like some ghastly youth, doing no exercise whatsoever, with his hands down his trackie bottoms jiggling his bits.

David was being thick this evening about Elizabeth's "too busy" excuse for refusing an invitation to come out.

hanging around town like some ghastly youth, doing no exercise whatsoever, with his hands down his trackie bottoms jiggling his bits

Eurgh! Vivid. Fortunately I'm not eating.

I don't think David was being thick, just trying to be discreet with Brian.

I'm confused again!
First off we had JD changing her mind about why Brian should plead Guilty (was: avoidance of gossip, now: avoidance of perjury) and now we have Brian changing his mind about why he should plead Not Guilty (was: calculated risk to attempt to avoid 100% of the fine, now: it's the Little Man sticking it to The System).
If Brian & Jenny's place was too small for the meeting, had no connectivity (thus ruling out Debbie and Kate) and was in danger of being eavesdropped by Kirsty then why didn't they hold it at Adam or Alice's place?

I'm not sure that JD has changed her mind. She has hated the gossip, but only Brine has said, and repeatedly that he wants to show the gossips by facing down the Man. I can't remember him saying he wants to avoid a fine, always about saving face. Good point about connectivity issue, but the eavesdropping is paranoia/shifting the goalposts. like Kirsty wouldn't hear their party but she would hear their meeting

I can't remember him saying he wants to avoid a fine, always about saving face.
There is a potential £1m fine and a criminal conviction, if found guilty.
There is a 30% discount if you accept guilt and save The System from incurring prosecution costs.
There is 100% discount if you go to Court but are found Guilty but we can't prove it Not Guilty, although there will be legal costs.

If Brian thinks that he can pull it off, £1m is a big incentive. It's enough to buy a scaled-down Home Farm or something at Beechwood.
What's happening with the Gills, btw?

Hatingthebigshow I agree with you re Pat's comments to Helen. Pat had huge reservations about Knob and said nothing because she didn't want to lose Helen. She, along with the rest of the family, are accustomed to having to pussyfoot around her because Helen is such a delicate snowflake (at the same time as being doggedly independent ). Presumably Pat regrets not saying more, putting her foot down and poking her nose in over Knob and is bound to have that in the back of her mind now. She's going about it the wrong way, but I think she can be forgiven for being concerned about Helen. I can't understand why they can't just discuss things normally, why Helen has to be so secretive - she lives at home with her parents who support her in every way they can with the children, why does she feel she has to sneak around? Actually I would have thought she might have discussed things with Pat from the start - "he seems really nice, he's been really understanding, he's been so supportive with Henwee..." All thing which could have been said about Knob at the start - I would have thought Helen might have been doubting her own judgement and been confiding in her mum. I have to admit, you'd think the fact that he wears a tracksuit would be the least of anyone's concerns (although we were all a bit at wearing white trainers for a country walk - I'm wondering is there is an unsuitable clothing motif as a hint of other unsuitability going on here).