As the Archers threads age like a fine wine, or a cheese, come and join us - it's nearly time for the Ambridge Flower and Produce show

[PseudoBadger]

Hopefully we can go back to an ordinary tale of country folk?

Spoilers are frowned upon.... There's a thread for that.

YES! Fed up with uninvited guests - even if relations. Been there done that with wedding.

I think Pip/Jill/Toby is about the backstory, but it is also about a bit of the story we know nothing at all about - i.e. what happens in Brighton. Jill's slightly OTT reaction is paving the way for the big reveal when she will prove to have been right all along. It's not really ringing true at the moment because Pip and Toby are not convincing as a big love story - they were friends with benefits for long enough and she knows he is an arse (and she's had experience of arses before so she should be on her guard). I think we all have a feeling Pip will end up with Rex - and Jill will drop her Fairbrethren objections (Toby is the one she seems to have a problem with). It seems to be yet another one of those stories where the characters are being forced to behave in a way that drives the plot rather than the plot springing from the way the characters could naturally be expected to behave.

I think jill's outburst tonight signifies something happening medically, whether it's "just" old age or a symptom of dementia or something else neurological.
That was my first thought because the outburst immediately reminded of my mother in the early stages of dementia. Although, obviously, Pip was in the wrong and she had reasons for disliking Toby.

All that "she's in love" nonsense was ridiculous. Pip knows Toby's a waste of space, he's just a good shag and she smugly likes the feeling of being the one who tamed the wild boy of Borsetshire. The only person Pip is in love with is Pip.

It is possible for an older person to have strong feelings about something and stand up for themselves without having Alzheimer's, you know!

True but just very unlike Jill to be so reactive. I also saw in last night my Mums first episode after a stroke.

Poor Jill. Why is going to care for her?

That was my first thought because the outburst immediately reminded of my mother in the early stages of dementia.

And me too, GG. Jill was justified in being annoyed but it was an over an exaggerated, quite childish reaction that lacked normal sensitivity. Quite well observed.

Poor Jill.

I think jill's outburst tonight signifies something happening medically, whether it's "just" old age or a symptom of dementia or something else neurological.

It could be, or it could be that for pretty much the first time ever as far as i recall they've managed to add some authenticity to what it's actually like having teens (ok I know Pip isn't a teenager any more) living with grandparents. It's always struck me as a riduculously unrealistic portrayal in the Archers given how many grandparents are living with their grandchildren (Jill has lived with Elizabeth as well I think, Joe with Ed and William, hasn't Jim been at Shula's? etc). Teens argue with whatever adults are living with them and in my experience grandparents are no exception to that, especially when they call them out on their thoughtlessness/natural teenager self-centredness.

My gran lived with us from when I was 15 until she died when I was 22 (I was at university for the last few years of that) and some of the rows were fearsome. In some ways the grandchildren can cop more of the tension as there can be an element of worry about lashing out at the child/d-or-s-il. When I look back on those years now I know I was in full teenager mode at times and thoroughly unpleasant; I also know my gran was frustrated at ageing, not being able to live independently etc and struggled with the generational differences from when my mum was a teen to when I was. Rows were pretty much inevitable but they have a strange edge to them and are different from arguing with your parents - the shift from the special grandparent relationship that a bit of distance tends to bring, to them being just another adult in your house to piss you off (from a teenager's perspective) is massively unsettling.

Disappointingly TA haven't ever really done this aspect of family life which given the number of grandparents living with extended families is unrealistic. I'd be quite happy to see more of these occasional skirmishes without it turning into another issue led story line.

Maybe D&R will persuade Jill to go and have a checkup... Which could be fun if the GP she gets is DocLocke, if she knows he had a fling with Shula and now Lizzie.

"Mum, you seem to feel very strongly about your much loved grand daughter going out with the unreliable, irresponsible, wastrel, liar son of the man who abandoned your pregnant daughter. I think you should go to the doctor- that's really not normal."

I think the fact people are on here discussing whether Jill is suffering from the onset of dementia indicates just how out of character that outburst was. Personally I think it is just bad writing to try and make a point so that when we eventually find out what happened in Brighton we'll all remember that Jill had the measure of him all along.

Bert, that wasn't Robin F, that was Cameron Fraser. Robin turned out to be married, but there was no pregnancy element to that story (except that possibly his wife was pregnant and that's why he went back to her - can't remember, can't be bothered to look it up).

I think NorthernLurker has nailed it. Jill has never felt she displaced Grace in Phil's affections. That was very obvious when Robin arrived on the scene, and at various other points (e.g. when Phil paid for the stained glass window in St Stephen's commemorating Grace). If Toby looks like Grace, it must be unbearable for Jill to see Pip (named for Phil, as others have said) fallling for him. She must have started wondering if Toby might end up part-owning Brookfield.

I quite liked last night's episode. It's a pleasant change for Jill to have something to say other than 'More tea, dear?' As I heard it, everybody was miffed with Pip for inviting Toby but the mood changed when Jill was really quite vicious to Pip in expressing her displeasure. If she'd been more restrained and measured the rest of the family and Carol would still have been on her side.

As for whether it prefigures some sort of cognitive decline, all I can say is that my parents are only slightly younger than Jill and if one of them had an outburst like that (which would equally out of character) I'd be worred about some medical problem.

Pip's not in love with Toby. She just wants the sex, and Toby refused unless they started being in a proper relationship.

However, while she recognises Toby is an arse, I don't think she's got the full measure of it. She did expect him to tell Rex, especially after all the rot about the Bro code. It's going to be interesting to see how she reacts when Rex tells her Toby told him she was the one doing all the running. Also she doesn't know that Rex told Toby how he feels about her. I think she's going to end up getting hurt (at which point, Rex will ride in on his white charger,) but it's partly her own fault for not opening her eyes, though that doesn't excuse Toby in the slightest for being such a git.

It wasn't unreasonable of her not to want Toby there, but the way she dealt with it was very much out of character, and that is what might make one think of dementia.

Based on Jill's usual MO, even if we think that visiting the wrongs of the father on the son is a bit unreasonable anyway, I would expect her to sniff a bit or do a passive aggressive silence. The foot-stamping-style hostility was not how Jill usually responds to something which displeases her - if Peggy had done that, I don't think the idea of dementia would occur, but it's just not Jill. So I don't know whether it's crappy script writing, or signposting trouble to come.

ALSO - as David or Ruth rightly observed, if Matthew had still been on the scene, everyone would have assumed he would be coming along, so you can see why Pip assumed it would be okay.

I mean, when Ruth was going to move them all up to Hadleigh Haugh (?) all Jill did was miserably say 'whatever you think best dear' in a very obviously mournful fashion, and complain about the thickness of the carpets at Grey Gables to Carol - and the moving plan was much worse on her than having her grand-daughter's boyfriend at tea time! It doesn't ring true that she'd have been so vehement and angry, outwardly, on this, so as I say - either cruddy script-writing, or something dementia-like, which I think they might have been signposting when David said perhaps they were going to have to start making more allowances.

Thanks Dad3 I must have missed it.

Agreed that it was out of character for Jill and agree with selsig that Pip being in love is nonsense, this is a FWB relationship pushed further by Toby.
Also remember how birthdays are treated in the Archer family, they are generally someone's "special day" and as Jill observes that with others I think she is allowed to expect that people will treat her the same way, especially as she is 86 and seems to do most of the housework. Meanwhile Pip's reasoning for inviting Toby was all about the benefits for her and Toby, she clearly hadn't thought of her grandmother at all and she should at least have discussed it with David and Ruth the day before or as soon as she decided. Inviting extra people to a meal without warning the people preparing that meal well in advance is thoughtless and selfish anyway. David and Ruth absolutely should not have sided with her. They were right about Jude, not, as Pip implied, being stupid about him.

Agreed that it was out of character for Jill and agree with selsig that Pip being in love is nonsense, this is a FWB relationship pushed further by Toby.
Also remember how birthdays are treated in the Archer family, they are generally someone's "special day" and as Jill observes that with others I think she is allowed to expect that people will treat her the same way, especially as she is 86 and seems to do most of the housework. Meanwhile Pip's reasoning for inviting Toby was all about the benefits for her and Toby, she clearly hadn't thought of her grandmother at all and she should at least have discussed it with David and Ruth the day before or as soon as she decided. Inviting extra people to a meal without warning the people preparing that meal well in advance is thoughtless and selfish anyway. David and Ruth absolutely should not have sided with her. They were right about Jude, not, as Pip implied, being stupid about him.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/2747827-Theres-a-slow-hand-clap-for-Knob-Will-there-be-one-for-Toby-Discuss-The-Archers-here?watched=1

Agreed that it was out of character for Jill and agree with selsig that Pip being in love is nonsense, this is a FWB relationship pushed further by Toby.
Also remember how birthdays are treated in the Archer family, they are generally someone's "special day" and as Jill observes that with others I think she is allowed to expect that people will treat her the same way, especially as she is 86 and seems to do most of the housework. Meanwhile Pip's reasoning for inviting Toby was all about the benefits for her and Toby, she clearly hadn't thought of her grandmother at all and she should at least have discussed it with David and Ruth the day before or as soon as she decided. Inviting extra people to a meal without warning the people preparing that meal well in advance is thoughtless and selfish anyway. David and Ruth absolutely should not have sided with her. They were right about Jude, not, as Pip implied, being stupid about him.

Agreed that it was out of character for Jill and agree with selsig that Pip being in love is nonsense, this is a FWB relationship pushed further by Toby.
Also remember how birthdays are treated in the Archer family, they are generally someone's "special day" and as Jill observes that with others I think she is allowed to expect that people will treat her the same way, especially as she is 86 and seems to do most of the housework. Meanwhile Pip's reasoning for inviting Toby was all about the benefits for her and Toby, she clearly hadn't thought of her grandmother at all and she should at least have discussed it with David and Ruth the day before or as soon as she decided. Inviting extra people to a meal without warning the people preparing that meal well in advance is thoughtless and selfish anyway. David and Ruth absolutely should not have sided with her. They were right about Jude, not, as Pip implied, being stupid about him.

Oh for goodness's sake. I've done this on another thread as well. My app has given me an error message and seems to be malfunctioning. Huge apologies all.

Argh, sorry for spamming this thread everyone. I won't make a mess in the new one.