Badly done Helen, badly done - you're as stuffed as a Grundy turkey. Discuss The Archers here.

[PseudoBadger]

New thread in time for Friday's episode...

Let's hope we can reconcile & not have anyone throwing in the towel at Trowel .

I agree!

I lurked for months and months before plucking up the courage to post as you all seemed so erudite and witty and therefore intimidating! Having finally done it I have found it the most friendly place I have been on MN, and an absolute delight being able to be unashamedly over-infested and to join in with the speculation and analysis. I've been feeling quite unsettled by the conflict.

Also agree told on the beauty of pizzled - I've been keeping it in mind to bring out at thread suggestion time!

That maybe answers my question, SmallLegs, I hadn't realised they had met since the wedding. Can anyone remember what happened then?

I can't remember them meeting since that big row after the wedding. Tom has met Kirsty, so has Pat, but I didn't think Helen had. Yes, I would have thought they needed to clear the air too, but perhaps the moment has passed.

IIRC Tom was speaking to Helen on the phone on the Stag Night a week before the wedding and stopped just short of saying he was making a mistake. His sister knew what he meant though and didn't give Kirsty a hint.

another robhel heavy episode

what happened to kenton despising david?

and clunkiness over the silage conversation

3Littlefrogs Tittered at your sleepwalking comment. Had you read the script?

No - I hadn't read the script!

I bet the SW are reading this thread though!

Did anyone hear the continuity announcer's comment after tonight's episode?

Something about Rob being enough to give anyone nightmares. I missed some of it due to DH coming in and wittering about the dishwasher. .

He should know by now not to disturb me when the Archers is on.

what happened to kenton despising david?

Exactly! Suddenly all happy families. I'm sure the last bit of that particular saga was the reluctant handshake for Jill's benefit, wasn't it? Or did I miss something?

I really hope they don't get Jill back in to do all the cooking. I think it's because those people I know IRL who really like to be 'useful' to everyone - like Jill - tend to really piss me off. Getting offended when their thoughtful gifts and services aren't really what was wanted, or inadvertently highlighting others' lacking skills (although admittedly Jill does seem more sensitive than the ones I've come across). I'd rather Ruth and David realised they were fine with microwave dinners and Jill realised she was happier playing bridge and getting pissed with Carol than whipping up pies all over the place.

What I don't get about Rob is why he wants to keep Helen out of everything.

I know people write about it in terms of 'he has her where he wants her', 'he's trying to isolate her' etc. Subconsciously perhaps. But do people really believe he is consciously plotting to weaken her mental state, leave her all alone etc? Surely not?

So, does he genuinely think pregnant women are a mess of hormonal thoughts and can't be trusted/need to put their feet up the whole time?.

Or do his views about married women come from 70 years ago and he thinks she just shouldn't work because she's married and now her job is his and their children's care? (but if this the case, why did he seem so impressed in the first place with her being a single mother and running the cheese operation etc.?)

Is he worried about how the shop's going and trying to stop Helen from finding out because he knows she'll be upset/try to step in?

Just enjoying all the managing and so on and doesn't want Helen to steal his glory? Hoping to be shop manager and have a little empire to manage without a boss breathing down his shoulder?

There was a very convincing analysis a while back from someone (Northern?) about Rob being someone who goes for what he wants and just gets rid of impediments in his path, which made a lot of sense to me. But I don't get what exactly his goal is in this instance.

Sometimes we never understand people IRL who it's fine by me if we never get to understand Rob. He's an arse. That's enough for me to know.

He wants to redesign the cafe/shop the way he wants it, not the way Helen had agreed with Fallon. Thereby destroying another friendship/source of support for Helen and getting his own way into the bargain.

Yes, doing the shop his way does make sense I suppose - he was pretty opinionated about the sleek modern look thing. Although why then get Tom involved with decorating and not Helen? Tom had to be persuaded round to the modern look too and may well have his own views on decorating? Plus Helen always ends up agreeing with his point of view, so you wouldn't have thought he'd worry too much about her changing things.

Perhaps when he doesn't want her around and he tells her she'd be better off resting etc. he manages to convince himself that that's what she's wanted for herself so it ends up becoming a combination of not particularly wanting her messing up his vision, and starting to believe the feelings and qualities that he has attributed to her (confused, hormonal, tired, fragile etc.) as really belonging to her.

Pip was doing the weird annoying voice again. Had hoped she had toned it down

Very late to the thread, marking place....

If Helen isn't there then he can pretend the sleek look is what she wants and they'll all go along with it because Helen mustn't be made upset. This way Rob gets what he wants and all the family will go along with it.
Helen will see it when it's finished and not be able to say they've all done it wrong.

His motive is control.

Rob is making Helen look indecisive, fragile, and bit mentally unstable to herself and other people so that if and when she plucks up the courage to confide in them, they will immediately do a 'poor unstable helen' face and run to her staunchest supporter ....rob.

I don't think rob is plotting, as in (a) do this (b) do that etc, but it's a semi deliberate agenda he has concocted. Manipulative people don't get lessons in how to manipulate, it is about reading people's weaknesses and using that knowledge to get what they want. Rob is a typical sociopath. Superficially charming, glib, ruthless, a liar, manipulative and most important, wanting to control other people because it makes him feel powerful.

He has an agenda and he is working his way to controlling Helens every move, thought and emotion so that she can devote all her energy to making him feel like a king.

I think that Hellen is merely a means to an end for Rob. His ultimate goal is to be successful and well-respected, so that the outside world has the high opinion of him that he believes he deserves. So what does he need to fulfill this picture of himself? To be a financially successful businessman, a doting father and a husband to an adoring wife.
So what if the business isn't actually his, or one of the children, and his wife is Stepford? He can explain all that away, if only people will listen to him unquestioningly. Because it does make him so very angry to think that people are questioning his judgement and his opinion of himself.
And if Helen threatens to upset his creation? Well her ED is only ever just a tiny relapse away, and she is so unstable and fragile, not really able to care for the children, I'm sure Rob would, regretfully, put her aside and concentrate on being a wonderful father and top entrepreneur. And people will be so very supportive of him, such a lovely man, burdened by an ill wife, doing his best for the children...why it makes him look even more caring!

In a nutshell, Rob cares about what Helen represents, he neither loves or needs her as an individual.

SevenOhTwo lots of people (mostly men) like to control their oh (usually a woman) because a. They can b. That's how they've seen relationships modelled c. Because they are deeply insecure and d. Lots of other reasons.

You've read the relationship board I assume?

That sleepwalking into the garden thing was really weird. I know a lot of women have very vivid dreams when they're pregnant but I've never heard of sleepwalking.

They're really upping the ante in the gaslighting. It's horrible

I think it could all be entirely deliberate on Rob's part. He knows what he wants to achieve, and in his mind anything he does in order to do that is absolutely fine. The Jess thing is also a strong factor - having let one woman dare to get away from him, he's very determined that it won't happen again and any means that he needs to use in order to ensure that are absolutely, justifiable.

Welcome to the thread sevenohtwo, it's always good when a lurker emerges from the shrubbery.

Hope you keep posting.

The sleepwalking scene was like 'dream analysis for dummies'; how can we spell out Helen's increasing sense of being trapped? 'I can't find my shoes, my shoes geddit? So I cannot escape'.

I don't know the origin of phrase 'barefoot and pregnant', something about a state of domestic subservience in which women might be trapped - heard used jokingly in my childhood - but, there we go.

Kirsty is the woman to rescue Hellin precisely because she has been off the scene for so long. She has kept her I initial impression of Knob as she has not been around to be worn down by him or Hellin - unlike Pat and others. She can see the change in Hellin - rather like when you don't see a child for a while and when you see them again notice how much they've grown. Regarding the whole why doesn't she just leave him debate I think the penny is only just starting to drop for Hellin - she's always been quick to find excuses for Knob, to dismiss abusive incidents as one-offs. Now she is too deeply ensnared to walk away - they are married, she is pregnant, she has given him parental responsibility for Henry and it now seems to be accepted that he is not going to get another job, but is going to take over her role at the farm and shop instead. Kirsty has taken all this in with one sweeping glance and is alarmed. Hellin doesn't know where to begin in disentangling herself - hopefully Kirsty will enable her to take the first step by forcing her to admit that something is wrong.

I haven't listened to last night's yet but sleepwalking is something that I do when I've a lot on my mind.

FFS, three healthy adults would rather rely on an 85 year old woman to make their meals elsewhere and bring them over rather than going to a shop. Seriously? And what were they planning to do for their evening meal if they didn't have enough for lunch?

I like "Bridge over Troubled Water" playing in the background during the last conversation between Helen and Rob.