SERIAL discussions and theories! **May contain spoilers**

[KeatsieMincePie]

A place to put forth our questions and theories without worrying about spoilers for those who are not caught up

For anyone interested in, here are links to the Serial SubReddit and the Slate.com podcasts-about-the-Serial-podcasts and the many other podcasts from This American Life.

If Jay was cheating on Stephanie and Adnan told Hae etc then there would be some evidence of this surely? Adnan would remember this. The person he was cheating with may be identifiable. It's a vaguely plausible motive if there is any evidence for it.

Been thinking generally about motives for murder, some of which are;

To keep a secret
Revenge
Frustration/hate/anger
Control/power
Money/Greed
Sex
Jealousy
For thrill of it/for notoriety
To protect someone else
Psychosis/deranged thinking

Is it possible there may be a motive here that no-one has even thought of, or some unknown connection between Hae and Jay?

Adnan and Stephanie were very close. I think the theory came up at trial but the lawyer somehow bungled it (the idea about Jay cheating). Think this came from a slate podcast - beginning to lose track of what came from where now.

Good list swingball

In one of those links (or maybe a link I clicked through from it, I can't remember), someone plausibly suggests that Jenn and Jay were basically FWBs. Jenn is the one who gives him an alibi and (tactically?) releases his name to the police. There's some talk from other friends that Hae was planning to confront Jay about him cheating on Stephanie. He was crazy about Stephanie so that does provide a motive for him losing his temper. A manual strangling in a relatively public place in the car comes across as an impulsive act, which fits accounts of Jay's volatility; certainly not one that Adnan would have realistically planned.

Mind you, Jay was a shitty boyfriend, judging by Adnan having to remind him to buy Stephanie a birthday present.

The issue of Adnan not speaking up is a complicated one, and the letter he writes to SK is very sad, I had the same reaction. But it goes some way to explaining the odd lack of information coming from him, why we don't hear him putting forward alternative theories or pointing the finger at anyone.

I must admit that i keep losing tracks of essential bits of info... Partly to do with the fact that i listen late at night in bed and i keep falling asleep (which is kind of womderful i a weird, hypnotic way - my subconscious is addicted to serial!) but the thing that confuses me the most is why Jay would frame Adnan this way, if Adnan had nothing to do with it. I mean - it would be an extremely risky strategy to accuse him of killing Hae while putting himself so squarely in the action, if it later turned out that Adnan had an alibi. Why would he do it? This keeps gnawing at me.

At the same time, i dont get Adnans motive at all, unless theres more that doesnt get told. And theres too many loose ends that bother me - Asia mclain, the Nisha call, Petapsco national park... Very strong reasonable doubt.

And definitely a bungled defense job (eeees eeett naaaawt), possibly on purpose as per Rabia's blog post on Christina.

I need to relook at the timeline as im confused...

Any guesses what will be in the last episode?

Soft have a look at the link posted by TheMagicToyshop on Jay's timeline and the detectives' input - it's great. It makes much more sense if it was Jay alone. For example at times they ask Jay why Adnan did something, and he'll say 'He said we'll take the car here' etc, but Jay is telling it like the conversation was happening while they were driving. Then they keep reminding him he and Adnan were in separate cars at that time (and we know there was only one phone).

Somehow they became interested in Jay - how I'm unclear, although it was possibly covered. I think it may have something to do with Jenn saying something. Anyway he starts telling different versions, gets in a muddle, is up to it in his neck, and the only way out is to make a bargain about implicating Adnan as the actual murderer. It then appears the detectives coach him very heavily. But I'm not sure why the detectives would want to go after Adnan, unless it was laziness in wanting to pin it on the most recent ex, as that's statistically more likely. Was it racism? In Jay they seemed to have a plausible suspect from the fact he led them to the body. So yes, I don't really get it either. It seems like a risky strategy for all concerned as there were many holes, but the defence lawyer seemed to miss the obvious while possibly having her own agenda for being very hot on other legal points. But when you read the transcripts of Jay's interviews, it seems clear (ish) what's going on, but I'm unclear why. If they were desperate to pin it on someone, why not Jay. I feel like I'm missing something obvious.

If they were desperate to pin it on someone, why not Jay.

Exactly. this is what makes no sense to me. Other than Jay's testimony, there is literally nothing implicating Adnan, except for a very flimsy motive.
With a better lawyer, Adnan would be a free man today - which is not to say that he's definitely innocent.

Just seen BOFster said Jenn did release Jay's name to the police, for tactical reasons. Maybe he thought he would be implicated for some reason, so got his story in first. But either didn't think it through or just made a real mess. We don't know what went on in the pre tape interviews. I still think he would have looked guilty to the detectives though.

I agree with Softcookie, I don't see how there was enough actual evidence to convict him really on Jay's unreliable statements. However Jay did lead the police to Hae's car so Jay certainly was in on something. Also the fact that Adnan was constantly calling Hae right up until midnight the day she died and then nothing, say's to me that something was going on for him to keep calling her and then nothing? it implies he either wasn't worried about her going missing or he knew that she wasn't going to answer the phone.

Someone on the Serial FB page posted a link to a list of suggestions to listen to whilst Serial is between Series 1 and 2. www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/12/11/serial_podcast_ends_next_week_what_to_read_and_watch_next_our_suggestions.html?wpsrc=fol_tw

Interview with Adnan's mother and brother in The Guardian
www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/dec/07/serial-adnan-syed-family-podcast-interview

Jay, Jay, Jay, all the way. The more I look at the call log and timelines the more I become convinced he was the murderer. The motive would be pure speculation but my theory is he'd cheated on Stephanie (probably with Jenn, who I think is in on the whole thing), Hae knew and had threatened to tell her. Adnan lent him his car and phone for the reasons he gave - so that he could buy Stephanie a birthday present - but having these in his possession enabled him to frame Adnan for the murder, although his story has so many holes I'm gobsmacked that anyone believed him. I think he killed Hae in the afternoon before he picked Adnan up from track and then borrowed the car and phone again that evening while Adnan was at mosque so that he and Jenn could bury the body in Leakin Park.
It's only a theory and I'm sure there are holes but I'm tempted to go back and listen again to a few of the early episodes to see how it holds up!

Indie yes, that's where I am on this. Thursday will be interesting.

I think a second series, presumably on another crime, will be quite difficult to do. This one has so many levels, and the format and how it unfolded is so new. Next time SK will be a lot more 'knowing' about the format iyswim, and part of what's been interesting about this is how it caught on, how people got involved (though not all of that has been positive) and just how original and unexpected it was as an experience.

I'd definitely try listening to another series though

My main issue is why Adnan never tried to contact Hae once she went missing - even if he wasn't worried.

There's something he's hiding, or someone is.

I think the most logical explanation is that yes, Adnan did kill Hae, but it was not planned. I feel there was some sort of disagreement and he snapped, or overreacted to the "shame" he was subjected to within his community/family/etc when it was revealed he was dating.

I don't think he is a psychopath, but he strikes me as smooth talking, very likable yet very explosive. An old uni friend got caught up in an abusive relationship with someone similar to Adnan, complete with familial pressures. To everyone outside of the relationship nobody would have guessed he had such a dark side, but to us who heard just how he beat our friend down, he was a right bastard. I'll admit he had me fooled for awhile too.

I can't fathom the motive if Jay is really the killer. Why would he kill her? Adnan had far greater cause and connection to do away with Hae. (Although I suspect her murder wasn't premeditated)

But we don't know anything about Jay. There has been a lot of talk of possible affair between Jay and Jenn, but it could be anyone. He could have made a pass at Hae and she threatened to tell Stephanie. He could be the psychopath who just wanted to get away with it.

Stephanie's parents disapproved of him, that could be a factor.

None of this would help obviously but he might have a motive no one knows about.

Similarly, Adnan could have argued with Hae the night before, no one knows what took place.

The timelines are confusing, but if the murder didn't take place at 2:36 then the Asia letter is irrelevant - but Hae would still have had to have been intercepted before she picked her cousin up from school.

If it did occur later, then there's no way Jay could pick Adnan up and do all that before getting him back to school for 4pm.

Yes, the police never seem to have properly investigated Jay and looked for a motive, which seems like a massive oversight. If they'd uncovered a motive then Jay is by far the more plausible suspect - he knew where Hae's car was, he got rid of the clothes he was wearing and his shovels were used to bury her!

It is utterly compelling isn't it? Based on the evidence put forward by the state there is no way he should have been convicted. His defence lawyer was utterly shit. As it stood, the fact Guttierez didn't follow up Asia McClain is incredible. My gut says he is innocent and Jay killed her alone then got Jen involved after the fact. It is also incomprehensible that Jay did not serve time. I wonder how Sarah will finish. Her opinion doesn't matter of course but intrigued all the same.

Just don't like it - find some accents grating on radio when prob wouldn't be on TV. Agree good script but not enough.

Final episode tomorrow morning, in the meantime funny parody www.adweek.com/adfreak/sarah-koenig-buckles-under-pressure-serials-final-episode-outstanding-parody-162006

I keep wondering what Jay thinks of all this. He must be listening.

Having listened to the last one, it feels like a follow-up is needed when certain things have run their course next year.

Oddly, the series being called serial always made me think of a serial killer. Just coincidence. Tantalising how that possibility was raised and then couldn't be taken any further as time had run out.

I did shift a bit with the review of all the evidence and think they were probably both lying. It wasn't just being high and not being able to remember. What were they up to earlier in the day, for instance.

Great parody