Survey on Bungalow - Dormer with no planning permission due to age it was built

[Needtorelax1]

Hi everyone,
looking for some opinions and advice! In the process of buying a beautiful 3 bed bungalow…built in 1950. Two bedrooms originally and the owners had a dormer made upstairs in April 1973. All plans can be seen etc.
however, due to the age of the dormer and when it was built there isn’t any planning permission or building regs as they simply weren’t available at the time!y solicitor seems to think this is absolutely fine but I’m so nervous that the survey will say something awful with regards to the dormer! Has anyone bought a property with an extension that was built back before planning permission was a thing? I so desperately want the property and I am just on pins as to what the survey will say!!

The loft sounds fine to me but if you're worried why not speak to the surveyor? In my experience they are a lot more willing to be frank when spoken to as they're not "on the record" so to speak.

@BadgernTheGarden - it was years ago but I think the bathroom floor was in a bad way. I can't remember anything else except my bf reducing the price. With the little cottages years ago maybe this was common.

@anon2022anon That wasn’t entirely what you were saying though. Plus, it might be irrelevant here, but DH has inspected many older houses with roof beams cut to ensure headroom and insertion of a window. It can be a big issue if the house structure isn’t sound. There’s no guarantee this window hasn’t been inserted with a similar gung ho approach. So the op should get a survey and go from there. However pp probably isn’t an issue. If a roof/structure has been tampered with it’s not a cheap fix and not something covered by indemnity insurance. So get the survey.

Planning permission has been required since 1948; even prior to that councils could had building control byelaws. Perhaps what they mean is that the council has not kept the applications for PP for this property and the extension? You should at least be able to find if permission was ever granted by searching through the Planning Committee minutes, likely to be held in the county archives/Record Office.

I do have a copy of the plans and the original further advance paperwork from 1972. The plans look very official and it states that the loan will be accepted only if approved by the building society valued. It also states on the plans ‘all to part H building regulation 1972’
So I do think that it looks to have been done officially at the time..there just isn’t any paperwork

@OhDear111 the OP has had a survey. She mentioned in the opening post that she had one booked, and she's posted excerpts above. I'd responded to the OP past that point.

Regardless, my personal opinion still stands.
In my opinion, in this circumstance, I would assume that any problems would have made themselves known within 50 years. If I were buying this property from you when you came to sell, the lack of building regs would not put me off (and indeed didn't put me off my own property, where there is a second story extension, built in the 70s, with no PP, and definitely no building regs as they weren't a thing then).

I think that given you are cautious, a survey is a good thing for you, but I would also assume that they would basically slate the house because it wouldn't be up to current regulations, so instead I would try to ignore things that weren't dangerous within the report, as they are not relevant to the sale.

For me personally in that situation, I would instead take a trusted builder if I was concerned by anything specific, such as cracks, sags in the ceiling, bouncy stairs, any sign that the upstairs is really not level when downstairs seems to be, and I would try to sort out safety issues such as a handrail early after moving in.

This is what I would do and think, other posters may be more cautious than me.

I think I need to wait and see what the solicitor says and speak to the surveyor. You are right I think it will be torn apart if I get it fully inspected because we all know that it won’t be up to current regs..but then a lot of extensions and conversions that are newer than this one won’t be either!

We recently bought a 1930s house which came with a converted loft that didn’t meet building regs. Previous owners used it for an office but we wanted it as a spare bedroom. We knew we were going to get it done properly eventually but not straight away. The survey obviously flagged it up like yours and said it shouldn’t be classed as a bedroom. However we did use it as a spare room for our adult kids when they visited. It was fine. The main issue was the lack of insulation which made it cold.

We're currently having it redone to add a shower room and get it insulated and up to business regs standards. We’ve had to have RSJs put in where they weren’t and fire doors etc but when the architect came to look round I asked if the original structure was safe and he said it was fine.

I’m glad we’re having it brought up to standard, for the insulation if nothing else but it would have been perfectly fine to use if we hadn’t. The fact that your has been in place for so long will mean the same as long as you bear in mind the extra precautions for fire escape etc.

House surveys are scary things to read, but if you ask the surveyor to talk you through it I’m sure some of your fears will be allayed.

Thankyou so much for this. I don’t think that it’s helped that the company sent it at 5pm to me on a Saturday…so no one to talk to therefore stewing over it all weekend! 🤦‍♀️
surely if my solicitor isn’t worried, (and I know that she is very good) then I need to listen to this aswell!

My last 3 houses all had mentioned if asbestos in the artex, I wouldn't stress about it too much, you can buy a kit to test it.

I would recommend getting a builder round to look at the access to the loft room, it might be something as simple as needing a fire door. Get a quote for what's needed to make the access comply and then negotiate that off the price.

Yes if you have confidence in your solicitor and can have a chat with your surveyor I’m sure that will help. Surveys always give the impression that a house is about to fall down 😂, but the first words from our surveyor when we called to talk it through were ‘This is a good, solid house’.

Buying and selling houses is SO stressful (I thought I was going out of my mind and I’ve done it several times before and had DH with me) so be kind to yourself and take all the help you can. When I was in the depths of anxiety with ours my DSis said ‘This is incredibly stressfuL right but in a few weeks time it will literally stop and you won’t have to worry about this again’. I found that very helpful.

@Needtorelax1 Surely your issue is whether you intend to use the loft, or not, for habitation? It’s not classed as a habitable space and that matters regarding fire regulations. Usually these require safe exit via a suitable staircase and fire doors. Your surveyor says it’s not safe for dc so not sure what else you need to know. It’s not fit for safe habitation and you should not pay for this as a bedroom. It is not a bedroom. The current requirements matter for safety. You can of course ignore them.

The water tanks are clearly a liability too,

OP I am a property solicitor and my advise would be to get a survey to satisfy yourself the property is sound - which you’ve done. There’s not much else to say. You might have to market it as a two bed when you come to sell. But everyone, except the lender for your buyer, will know what they’re really getting. As a rule lenders don’t like loft conversions without regs but given the age I’d expect they’d be ok with it

@RedSkyatNight25 It matters a lot if the op is going to use it as a bedroom for a child or guest though! The surveyor says it’s not a habitable space. So the issue might come well before selling it. Does the op believe it’s safe to use? If it’s marketed as a bedroom, it’s probably over priced and mis described. If it’s shown as habitable space on the floor plan, it’s misleading. I’d be looking at other houses locally and checking prices.

Seriously? You are never going to get through this house purchase unless you calm down!!!! All it is saying is that it doesn’t comply with current building regulations, which it won’t because it was done in the 1970’s. Why specifically would it be unsafe for your daughter? If she has to climb a stepladder to get in and out of course that is a no go but if there are proper stairs that she can safely navigate in the middle of the night in a fire then it should be fine.

No. A loft conversion with no safe stairs is not a bedroom. That looks more like a cupboard! OP - it’s a poor choice. What do the stairs look like? Picture? Your surveyor is telling you it’s not safe to use as a bedroom. It’s not a habitable room so why do you think it is?

The stairs are being replaced! They are are full set of stairs, the picture I have shown is just the door to the loft!! There is a full door and stairs that need replacing as there is no handrail! Surveyor has confirmed today that as long as the handrail is added it can be used as a bedroom!

Here are the stairs with a full door at the top of them leading to the room

The OP can form her own views on the surveyors comments.

Edited to add - apparently the lack of handrail is what precludes it from being a bedroom - hardly critical!

@RedSkyatNight25 I actually doubt that! I would bet the staircase is not enclosed and probably too narrow. No picture to judge.

OP has confirmed.

It’s not the handrail! It’s that it’s open on one side! Lawyers aren’t best qualified to know about house safety. That means it’s not enclosed and that’s not safe regarding a fire. If I was buying this I would be making it safe by having it amended to modern regulations.

I’m getting the stairs replaced that’s what I’m trying to say xx

@Needtorelax1 Just make sure the roof is insulated and the heating up there is efficient. Make sure there’s enough room for a legal staircase. There’s lots of guidance on this. If it’s bespoke, and it might have to be, it’s a lot of money. Is this your dream house? Good luck anyway.

It sounds like you are doing all the right things. 😊.

I would definitely have a chat with your surveyor and if your solicitor is good (ours was amazing and was the calm voice of sanity I needed!) you can talk to them. Basically things like this can be changed. Our loft staircase looked a bit like yours with a section that a small child would be able to fall through. We didn’t worry because we knew we would be getting it remodelled to meet building regs requirements and we have no small children here. It basically comes down to if you’re paying a fair price given the work that will need doing to get it back up to scratch. We didn’t even bother asking for any money off ours as three other people had offered the asking price at the same time as us so we knew they could sell it to someone else if we started getting iffy about the price. And we really wanted the house.

If the price you’re paying is ok for what you are getting, you have enough left for the work needed and the survey doesn’t indicate anything that is likely to make it a money pit, you will probably be fine.