Survey on Bungalow - Dormer with no planning permission due to age it was built

[Needtorelax1]

Hi everyone,
looking for some opinions and advice! In the process of buying a beautiful 3 bed bungalow…built in 1950. Two bedrooms originally and the owners had a dormer made upstairs in April 1973. All plans can be seen etc.
however, due to the age of the dormer and when it was built there isn’t any planning permission or building regs as they simply weren’t available at the time!y solicitor seems to think this is absolutely fine but I’m so nervous that the survey will say something awful with regards to the dormer! Has anyone bought a property with an extension that was built back before planning permission was a thing? I so desperately want the property and I am just on pins as to what the survey will say!!

Surprising how expensive they are and how well they sell then, isn't it?

If you're panicking about extensions, planning permission, building control, insulation then you need to buy somewhere that won't flag up those problems on survey.

It may not have needed significant foundations depending what the ground it was built on was, you probably wouldn't be allowed to convert to a two storey building without modern foundations. And how did they find out? They would have to have dug a test pit around the wall to see the foundations, or not.

New builds usually have quite a few snagging problems. They can have more severe problems. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-68663984 I wouldnt buy one without checking if any roads were adopted, whether the sewers were private and if there were any charges for maintenance of common areas.

Is that lack of fire proof doors or not fully fixed staircase or no handrails, they really need to tell you why it doesn't meet the rules for habitable rooms, some things are very easily fixed, like changing doors. There are obviously windows since it's a dormer or do they not open? You need more information. Low headroom may be another one. May even be just that there is no building regulations approval although it didn't need any when built!

I do think you now need to consider whether the property is perhaps over-valued now you have the knowledge that the bedroom in the loft is not suitable for safe habitation without remedial works.

A lot depends on what the survey actually said. It shouldnt be sold as a 3 bed property if the third bedroom doesnt meet standards for a habitable room, e.g minimum ceiling height is 2.3 metres. It can be sold as a 2 bed with a storage room or a study in the roof. in practise there is nothing unsafe about using it as a bedroom with a few minor adjustments, it just affects how other people will see it when you sell.

You need to check your mortgage offer and maybe renegotiate on price.

This is nonsense. The loft is converted, there is no minimum ceiling height, only on the stairs. Look at all the lofts being converted with sloping ceilings and minimal head room. There are practical standards, but they do not form part of the building regulations. This was converted before the regulations applied, anyway.

A study in the roof is a habitable room in exactly the same way a bedroom is.

@BlouseyBrowne

You are allowed to have part of the space at a lower height, I believe it's 50%. It is not only on the stairs. OP can use it as a bedroom if she wishes, I said that. She cant market it as a 3 bed. Yes there are many loft rooms illegally described as bedrooms, doesnt mean OP should do it.

The regulations for bedrooms and studies are different. You dont sleep in a study - at least not all night. I did get the height wrong though, it's 2.2 metres.

A habitable room is a habitable room. It is defined as any room used for living purposes.
That might be a study, hobby room or bedroom. The regulations do not differentiate in conversions.

If you create a loft conversion under the current regs, there is no minimum ceiling height within the room. There is a minimum on the stairs and landings only and that is 2.0, which can be reduced to 1.9m in certain scenarios.

The property was marketed as a 3 bed…this is what is annoying here!

I cant easily find relevant building regs online so I give you the Federation of Master Builders talking about loft conversions. https://www.fmb.org.uk/find-a-builder/ultimate-guides-to-home-renovation/loft-conversions-the-ultimate-guide.html You'll see the reference to a 2.2 ceiling height.

An existing loft conversion doesnt have to meet current building regulations, it's old enough that there is no enforcement risk to be concerned about. It does affect how a building society may value the property and what they are prepared to lend on it. It may be that the conversion is near enough to current regs to make a few inexpensive changes, it may be that it's far enough away from current standards that a mortgage will be based on it being a 2 bedroom property. OP needs to ask them.

I once viewed a (very odd!) property with an 'en suite' I could not stand up in..........

Goodness most buildings would not pass current regulations now! My Victorian house was built without foundations! Relax. It’s not an issue. And agree indemnity insurance is worthless.

Do you really think so..it has also stated that asbestos might be present in the artex ceilings…and it needs a rewire! Does anyone know what the stance is on this with whether an electrician will touch it?!!

If the artex will be disturbed (and you’ve had it confirmed that it contains asbestos), an electrician can work on it but only if trained, competent, and following asbestos control measures.

Again, there is no prescribed overall ceiling height for rooms.

2.2m is a practical minimum. It is a design guideline and not a legal requirement.

My house is 400 years old. Every ceiling in the house is low, particularly on the first floor where some are not even 1.8m. Was it sold to us as a 5 bed property despite this? Yes. Will it be sold as the same? Also yes.

The OPs property is marketed as a 3 bed, because it is and design guidelines don’t affect it.

It’s the distinction for lenders - lenders are nervous about loft conversions without regs converted to bedrooms but more relaxed if you don’t class them as “habitable” space like storage etc.

I would not be concerned about it from the perspective of living there, but as others have alluded to it could cause an issue with your lender (assuming you need a mortgage) as their valuation will be based on it being a two bedroom rather than three bedroom house. Even if not an issue for you now it may be when you come to sell. So that is the concern I would have and I suggest you need to discuss it with your lender and solicitor.

I am buying with cash so haven’t had to go through a lender…gosh it’s a tough one. Am I just totally overthinking here?!!

@anon2022anon Yes, that’s builder speak for you. Obviously not all buildings are sound or well built! No need for surveyors reports if they were all ok!

In this case, just wait for the survey. Wear and tear might be an issue but unlikely pp was needed. Building regs maybe. What’s the stair access like?

@OhDear111 I'm happy to go by what my father in law says, hes a builder (who has built his own house 3 times in the past) and has about 60 years experience.

A surveyor has to write about EVERYTHING that they could go wrong, not what they think will actually go wrong. If you put up a poll asking how many surveys say 'roof may need replacing within 10 years', my guess it would be well over 60%, but I don't know anyone who's actually had to replace their roof within 10 years of buying. Whereas a builder will look at a roof and actually tell you the likelihood of it needing replacing anytime soon. Surveyors have to cover their back.

@anon2022anonIm married to a structural engineer so I hope you don’t find out the hard way - poor building practices can lead to big problems! Builders don’t have Chartered engineer status. Neither do they do the calcs and the engineering drawings.

@OhDear111 me too, but what need is there for a structural engineer or calculations, in this situation? A loft conversion that's been stood for 50 years, with no significant movement or cracking? The survey points out it doesn't meet current building regs- we knew that already.

A builder can't do what a structural engineer can, but an experienced builder can tell you when they are worried about something, or what they wouldn't touch, or when a structural engineer is needed. Same as a structural engineer can do the plans and calculations, but it's a very rare case that they can do the building too. They can compliment each other.

If you like it, buy it. How long do you intend to live there for? Personally think you can tie yourself in knots wondering about how marketable etc it is in the future. Structural engineer totally irrelevant- 50 years is ample time to see if it was knocked together with mud and sticks.

my solicitor has told me the same @RedSkyatNight25to be honest. I just think the survey is a horror read…they cover their backs I know that…it’s just hard being single and not having someone to bounce ideas off of etc. But I do love the bungalow so much. It’s local to my daughter at her dads and school and it just feels like home. I really don’t want to lose it