Is PigletJohn still around? Can you please help me with a water hammer problem? Thanks

[Ihavethebestdogs]

Hi, hoping PigletJohn is still around and can help... I'd really appreciate it.

Our house is only 18 or so years old and is a semi-detached 3 bedroom. My husband moved in in May 2022. I didn't move in with him till September 2023 so I'm not sure how long this problem has been going on.

I did visit when he lived here alone but I don't remember a real issue until the previous owners' washing machine was taken out and a new one was plumbed in, probably around September 2022. It may have been that there was water hammer before, really not sure but I definitely recall it happening after the new machine was plumbed in (it's a Samsung EcoBubble that was actually in my husband's previous property and caused no problems there). I also think there was only clunking when the washing machine was in use, not on other things like taps, toilets, but they may have been affected to and I didn't notice or it's got worse... Whatever, it's definitely more or less all over the house now.

The washing machine is 'clunking' throughout its cycle. I wince every time it's running as it makes a terrible racket. I cringe thinking that the pipes are going to burst and there's going to be a major leak in the house. The same plumber above checked behind the washing machine and said everything was clipped etc. He was going to put a new internal stop tap in under the sink (not sure why) but when he tried to turn the stop tap off outside it was damaged and he couldn't proceed.
The water company came out and replaced the stop tap.

As I said, it may have been happening before and maybe not registered as it's possibly not been so severe, but now, as well as the washing machine clunking, there seems to be a clunk whenever we turn on/ off any tap in the house, a big clunk when the toilets (all 3, two upstairs and one downstairs) are flushed (and when the toilet upstairs is flushed you can also hear a bup, bup, bup noise for a few seconds or so in the living room ceiling directly below the bathroom). It doesn't matter what toilet or tap is used the clunk always seems to be coming from the utility room where the washing machine is located.
The ONLY thing that doesn't clunk is the dishwasher which is on the other side of the kitchen / house away from all the other taps, bath, toilets, utility room (except for the kitchen taps which are nearby and clunk but not as severely).

We have called several plumbers who are time-served. One said a straight out no, he wouldn't touch it. Another said he said there are lots of causes and he'd have to charge by the hour till he sourced the problem if he could, warning us that he has seen this issue before and had not been able to fix it as he couldn't access the problematic pipe. Another said he may fix it and it could return as it might be several problems...or only be a temporary fix.
A plumber / heating engineer my husband knew from way back said he could fit an arrestor which might help but we've not been able to reach him on the phone and he's not got back to us. All the plumbers we've called have said it's nothing to do with the boiler (also in the utility room) as it's a Worcester Combi boiler.

A couple of plumbers have said that it won't cause any severe problems for pipes, fixtures, appliances etc as domestic properties are only 3 bar. I have read, though, that the hydraulic shock of water hammer can do severe damage and needs addressing early on to avoid it progressing to a very costly problem to repair. Not sure why the plumbers and plumbing websites opinions seem to differ on this.

We were going to get in touch with the water company to ask them if they can check the water pressure. We asked next door if they could hear anything and they said no, nothing at all. We also hear a clunk from their house but when she turned the taps on I suspected were a problem (they back onto our utility room) they sounded normal from her side, as did her washing machine.

Her husband has told my husband he'll come and adjust the outside stop tap in the morning but I have asked my husband to politely put him off as he is not a plumber. I am terrified he'll make it worse and a). I suspect the water company plumber set the pressure to the correct level when he fitted the new stop tap outside very recently and b) why would a plumber we called suggest an arrestor if it was as simple as adjusting the outside tap.

Can you offer any insights, PigletJohn. I'm at the end of my tether and worried a pipe will burst and leak. I just want it fixed. We will get a plumber but don't have a huge amount of money to throw at this problem so we would like to have an idea of what is most likely the cause and remedy.

I've thought about getting the washing machine disconnected and reconnected to see if that helps but I read online that if it's happening throughout the house the washing machine is likely to be another victim of the problem rather than a cause of it.

It looks like we don't share a water stop tap / feed with nextdoor if that helps...

We are currently turning taps on and off incredibly slowing and flushing as infrequently as hygienically possible... It helps but is not a fix, and of course doesn't cure the washing machine! Also, we are really hoping to sell and move asap and I know I wouldn't touch a property with this issue so I expect others wouldn't either.

Thanks so much. I really appreciate it.

Summon him like this @PigletJohn

I may be completely off the mark here but while we wait for input from our illustrious plumbing expert, can I suggest you check the pressure of the water coming into your property (main stop cock - usually under the kitchen sink). We had a professional plumber in once who left it on full and the banging and shaking was horrendous when the taps were turned on.
I am also assuming you've tried draining and refilling the pipes to get rid of any trapped air.

I'm not Piglet John but I may be able to help. You may have an airlock somewhere in the plumbing.

Put your kitchen cold tap on, leave it running and while it's running turn your internal stop tap on and off and finally back on again. The kitchen tap will splutter a bit while the air is coming through but eventually it should clear the whole system.

RicePuddingWithCinnamon... I will try to summon but I'm not sure how, though I can see an @ sign at the bottom of this message window. It's a while since I've been here and I'm not the best with computers! Thanks

Thanks for your input MrsMoastyToasty.. I think something like this has been done (check for air in pipes) but I'll ask my husband in the morning. I do recall all the taps spluttering back into life when turned on after some procedure and there was no difference. Might be worth doing again following your instructions though! Thanks!

Thanks too JamMakingWannabe (as above re air) and I will bear the water pressure in mind. As I said the neighbour - who is not a plumber - has offered to adjust stop tap outside (not inside as you suggest...not sure what the difference is wrt water pressure tbh).
A new outside stop tap was fitted by the water company recently so I assumed the engineer would have set the pressure at the time to what it should be (if applicable). Anyway, the problem was there before the outside stop tap was replaced...
I recall the last plumber fiddling about with the stop tap under the sink and whatever he did made no difference. He mentioned attaching some gadget to it, I think, but he seemed to be clutching at straws and not very experienced so we didn't ask him back.
Btw, shocked a professional plumber left you in that state, that's awful.
Thank you both for your suggestions!

I'm off to try and summon PigletJohn as RicePuddingWithCinnamon suggests!

Hi PigletJohn...can you help? @PigletJohn

@PigletJohn Can you help? Thanks so much

I have a similar problem but only when the top floor toilet is flushed.......marking the thread in the hope that piglet John can save us both🙏 from the banging pipes😂

So, this may not be entirely helpful because you don’t have steam pipes in the U.K. for your heating BUT, where I live banging pipes come with the literal territory. Our old apartment buildings are heated by a massive boiler in the basement that generates steam. Steam is pushed through pipes throughout the building, in and out of all the apartments. If there’s air in the pipes - and there’s ALWAYS in the pipes because we don’t live in space - the banging of pipes as steam pushes air along and into/out of radiators can make your walls shake. Well constructed buildings have all their pipes laid at a slight angle, so the air works its way up to the top and every so often the building Super “bleeds” the building. Less well constructed buildings lay their pipes horizontally and there’s literally nothing you can do about stuck air. It’s part and parcel of living in these buildings.

On this basis, and I’m no plumber, I think the “open the kitchen tap and turn the stopcock off/on and let the air splutter out” is a good shout, but ultimately the plumber who said there could be different causes and he’d have to go through them one by one and possibly not have a solution for the problem he ultimately pinpoints, could be giving you the best advice. I don’t think British houses (assuming that’s where you are) are this shoddily built generally so I’d be hopeful that a solution can be found. But I do think it sounds very much like air in your pipes. (Note our heating is closed circuit so unaffected by taps etc, but I suspect your house has a single system for everything?)

We don't have steam.

Washing machines and dishwashers you can identify because, if the cause, it will happen when they close the water valve after filling for a wash or rinse cycle. I have an idea that some are fitted with an equilibrium valve but I may be mistaken.

A WC cistern will do it especially if the ball cock is old and worn. You can fit a Torbeck valve which is very quiet and should not bang. There are similar copies which I do not think are as good.

Older houses with a loft tank often have an old and neglected ballcock, or one in a small tank on top of the cylinder. Some of them bounce on water ripples. A replacement is a trifling job. It must be a "Part 2" valve which protects against water contamination. You can check for noise by pressing the float down and releasing it. If it is very bad or you are rich you can fit a brass equilibrium valve.

Ceramic taps can do it, but screw-down traditional taps with a rubber washer, unlikely unless worn out.

I don't think it's air in the pipes because air is compressible and absorbs shock pulses. A shock arrestor does the same thing and is worth a try.

It might be unusually high pressure.

The stopcock reduces the flow, but not the pressure. A plumber can test the water pressure and see if it unusually high. If so, you can fit a pressure reducer next to the stopcock. A Caleffi is about £45 ( I recommend the one with its own pressure gauge). Water pressure is highest late at night until about 6am when not much is being used and the supply is full. So the hammer is usually worse at night. Some people restrict the stopcock to reduce flow, this makes all your taps and shower run slower but does not repair the cause of hammer.

I should think there is a loose pipe somewhere, perhaps running to a loft tank that was disconnected when the combi boiler went in. A loose pipe not fixed firmly to the wall, or joists under a floor perhaps. Maybe a forgotten garden tap. Hold all the pipes you can find while an assistant causes the hammer, and see where in the house the vibration is strongest. Also hold the blue plastic fill hose on the machines. Pipe clips are easy and cheap, you can also add lagging to the pipes to deaden vibration. I think the black rubber Armaflex is best for that, though more expensive than plastic foam.

If you turn on a cold tap in the kitchen, running slowly, you may find the hammer stops, as it relieves the pressure pulses.

Probably your fill valve in the WC cistern is worn out. Open the lid and post some pics. If you have had it boxed in and tiled over you will find out why I don't recommend it.

@PigletJohn
Thanks so much for your help. And just to update and perhaps call on your vast knowledge again. It's really two or three quick questions if you don't mind advising further. I'll highlight them in bold.

For what it was worth the man next door did come round yesterday morning to adjust the outdoor stop tap - (didn't knock and was mid-procedure when we actually noticed and went out) - at which point he asked us to turn all the cold taps off and flush all the loos (we turned the hot off too, not sure if we should have). He then told us to put all the taps back on. They spluttered back in to life and for a while it looked like we could only get a dribble out of the cold tap at the highest point (ensuite) but that improved after ten mins or so The shower (same room) also doesn't seem as powerful but it's tolerable for now.
Another issue is that the flow reduces in the kitchen hot tap if someone uses the sink in the downstairs loo. Again, tolerable but not ideal. I'm assuming he's reduced the water flow into the house? Does that sound right?

Anyhow, there is still a bit of a clunk when taps are turned on and off (esp off), and the toilets are still doing a bit of a clunk the end of the flush cycle, perhaps not as severe but still audible. The most worrisome issue is that the washing machine is still clunking away, as bad as ever, and there still seems to be a dup, dup dup through the pipes in the upstairs bathroom that can be heard in the living room below when the taps or toilet are used up there.

Could I ask for your insight into what might be happening, after my update?

I also wondered at this... You wrote: The stopcock reduces the flow, but not the pressure. A plumber can test the water pressure and see if it unusually high. If so, you can fit a pressure reducer next to the stopcock.
**I feel daft but I assume the stopcock is the internal tap under the sink? Could this be the issue if the washing machine is still clunking away and might fitting a pressure reducer on the stop cock potentially cure the washing machine and other sounds? It honestly feels like all the 'clunks' from everything (apart from ceiling noises) are concentrated in the small utility room, behind the washing machine. I'm not sure if that's some kind of auditory illusion - doubt it as we do hear the clunking strongly in the living room adjacent, esp when the washing machine's running - but one thing was told, from the last time a plumber came, is that the washing machine is securely clipped in. That at least looks not to be an issue. Maybe it is a loose pipe as you suggest...

A plumber is supposed to be calling us over the weekend to arrange a call-out to the house. Any insight you can give after my update would be really appreciated.
Obviously, neither of us is a plumber but we don't want to look completely wet behind the ears. We want to try to get to the nub of the issue as quickly as possible as we don't have huge amounts of money to throw at the issue.

The water company is supposed to be coming to fit a new water meter in the next week or two (the current one is unconnected with a smashed in dial, either from before the water company guy came to fit a new outside stop tap or by him for some reason... Anyhow, the clunking precedes his intervention). Is it worth asking him to check the flow into the house, or are we best to leave that, especially if a plumber is able to resolve the issue before the water company's visit to replace the meter?

Anyhow, thanks so much. PigletJohn. Your help and expertise is really appreciated!

Ps. Mossstitch: hope your top floor loo gets fixed and your banging pipes resolve! From what PigletJohn has advised you, your issue looks it might be more straightforward to resolve...as long as your haven't had your cistern lid tiled in!
Thanks too shenandoahvalley... From your username I'm assuming you're the US but your input is appreciated, plus I now know more than I did before about steam systems!

@PigletJohn
Oops, sorry, for some reason the bold parts are not in bold in my message after submitting it! 🙄

I don't know what the upstairs bathroom noise is.

You get clicking from water pipes and waste pipes when they expand or contract as you run hot or cold water through them. It starts shortly after the run starts, slows and stops as the temperature equalises, then slowly starts again when the flow stops and they settle back to room temperature. Hot boiler pipes do the same. The fix is easy, unless you have to lift floorboards to get at them.

A stopcock is a tap that cuts off the water flow. Typically there is an outside one near where the front gate used to be when the house was built, and an indoor one near where the kitchen dink used to be when the house was built. Typical brass ones have a unique shape with a slope that enables them to be turned off even when they are worn out.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/flomasta-brass-stopcock-15mm/31490
Incidentally, if you ever have a new water supply pipe in a larger dude, usually plastic, you should get a new stopcock in the larger size. A small one will restrict the flow and cause noise (but not hammer)

I think your neighbour has turned down the flow to hide the noise of water hammer. Reducing the flow will make your taps and shower weaker. You can get a pressure reducing valve fitted by a plumber if necessary. Ask the water person to test your pressure and tell you what it is. Abnormally high pressure encourages hammer.

You could also get an Arrestor fitted to absorb the hammer, if you can't find and rectify the cause. Pegler is a superior brand.
https://www.screwfix.com/c/heating-plumbing/hammer-arresters/cat10420003?cm_sp=managedredirect--plumbing--hammerarresters

I don't know if there could be a fault on your washing machine electric valve. It should only turn off a few times during a wash, when it has finished filling each time. They are pretty standard, very simple devices, although the Bosch one is slightly different.

@PigletJohn
Thanks for replying and so quickly.
Sorry to trouble you further but I'm a bit out of my depth. I've marked questions with a double asterisk and tried underlining them, since my attempts at putting them in bold failed.

**The clicking pipes through the ceiling are unlikely to cause damage, right? It's more the noise being an inconvenience?

You wrote:
Incidentally, if you ever have a new water supply pipe in a larger dude, usually plastic, you should get a new stopcock in the larger size. A small one will restrict the flow and cause noise (but not hammer).
**what is a larger dude? Is this something I need to worry about in our case? I'm not sure if you're just adding this info as an interesting aside in case the water company every fits a new supply pipe? I really wish I had a grasp of even the basics of plumbing! I'm so uninformed!
The last plumber mentioned putting a new stopcock inside and maybe fitting an arrestor. **Does it go on the stopcock or washing machine? And should an arrestor go on the hot and the cold supply? Thanks so much for the Pegler recommendation. If the plumber who's promised to get in touch over the weekend actually does, and thinks fitting one will help I will request a Pegler!
Whatever happens, I don't want more noise than there is now... 😱

I'm assuming all the above will be common knowledge to a decent plumber.

I think the neighbour has done what you said. The water flow still seems ok unless you want to run the kitchen and downstairs loo simultaneously. Plus, it does seemed to have helped slightly wrt to taps and loos, but sadly not the washing machine.

**Will the water company person check the pressure from outside or inside? Only asking so we can be sure to be in if he needs to come in the house.

Thank you for your help, PigletJohn. You are very generous with your time and knowledge and it's really appreciated! If you do get a chance to answer my further questions please don't rush to reply. I'm aware you must have other things to do. The plumber / Water Company won't be here till - hopefully - some time next week anyway.

Thanks again!

The arrestors I linked are single appliance, so you would fit one on the feed to the washing machine. You need one on the cold feed, just by the washing machine tap.

If you are lucky enough to have a washer that also has a hot feed, and if the hot feed is also high pressure, from a combi or an unvented cylinder, fit one there too.

The water pressure from the mains will be the same inside and outside the house, though it will drop a little when you turn taps on. If you have a powerful shower, it can be useful to know how much it drops, but this is not relevant to the hammer problem.

Expansion clicking is just an irritation.

"dude" is "size"

Old water supply pipes were designed to fill a loft tank, and were usually half inch i.d.
This is quite small and flow is slow.

If you want a combi or an unvented cyljnder, you need more flow, and it is common to run a new, larger, blue plastic pipe in 25mm or 32mm o.d. which gives better flow. This is also worthwhile if your old pipe is leaking or made of lead and needs replacement. IME iron pipes leak at around 50 years, and lead pipes at around 100 years, though one is still in use at 500 years, and several at 2,000 years (probably been repaired).

@PigletJohn Thanks so much! I really appreciate it. I'll try to remember what you've said when we see the plumber. I think the washer is cold feed only but will ask the plumber to check.
Would you recommend an arrestor on the inside stopcock too to stop the clunk from the taps and toilets? The last plumber was talking about putting one there.
Thanks again for all your help! 🙂I'll hopefully come back to you soon and confirm that the water hammer is gone and what the cure was. Thanks again!!
Hope you have a great weekend!

@PigletJohn Ps. The last plumber who talked about putting an arrestor in (when we chatted to him on the phone) seemed to be very interested in whether the clunking was happening on the hot water only. It's worse on hot than cold on the taps. Toilet and washing machine have nothing to do with hot water taps I don't think so not sure why he asked. Anyhow, thanks again.

It's better next to the source of hammer.

@PigletJohn I really appreciate you taking the time to help, not to mention your wealth of knowledge! Really didn't expect this kind of issue in a house under 20 years old! Thanks again. Will post an update after it's hopefully fixed!

Under 20 years old you probably already have plastic pipe, see if you can measure it, outside diameter most likely 25mm or 20mm.

I have been assuming your indoor pipes are copper? Or are they plastic? Grey or white?