Is PigletJohn still around? Can you please help me with a water hammer problem? Thanks

[Ihavethebestdogs]

Hi, hoping PigletJohn is still around and can help... I'd really appreciate it.

Our house is only 18 or so years old and is a semi-detached 3 bedroom. My husband moved in in May 2022. I didn't move in with him till September 2023 so I'm not sure how long this problem has been going on.

I did visit when he lived here alone but I don't remember a real issue until the previous owners' washing machine was taken out and a new one was plumbed in, probably around September 2022. It may have been that there was water hammer before, really not sure but I definitely recall it happening after the new machine was plumbed in (it's a Samsung EcoBubble that was actually in my husband's previous property and caused no problems there). I also think there was only clunking when the washing machine was in use, not on other things like taps, toilets, but they may have been affected to and I didn't notice or it's got worse... Whatever, it's definitely more or less all over the house now.

The washing machine is 'clunking' throughout its cycle. I wince every time it's running as it makes a terrible racket. I cringe thinking that the pipes are going to burst and there's going to be a major leak in the house. The same plumber above checked behind the washing machine and said everything was clipped etc. He was going to put a new internal stop tap in under the sink (not sure why) but when he tried to turn the stop tap off outside it was damaged and he couldn't proceed.
The water company came out and replaced the stop tap.

As I said, it may have been happening before and maybe not registered as it's possibly not been so severe, but now, as well as the washing machine clunking, there seems to be a clunk whenever we turn on/ off any tap in the house, a big clunk when the toilets (all 3, two upstairs and one downstairs) are flushed (and when the toilet upstairs is flushed you can also hear a bup, bup, bup noise for a few seconds or so in the living room ceiling directly below the bathroom). It doesn't matter what toilet or tap is used the clunk always seems to be coming from the utility room where the washing machine is located.
The ONLY thing that doesn't clunk is the dishwasher which is on the other side of the kitchen / house away from all the other taps, bath, toilets, utility room (except for the kitchen taps which are nearby and clunk but not as severely).

We have called several plumbers who are time-served. One said a straight out no, he wouldn't touch it. Another said he said there are lots of causes and he'd have to charge by the hour till he sourced the problem if he could, warning us that he has seen this issue before and had not been able to fix it as he couldn't access the problematic pipe. Another said he may fix it and it could return as it might be several problems...or only be a temporary fix.
A plumber / heating engineer my husband knew from way back said he could fit an arrestor which might help but we've not been able to reach him on the phone and he's not got back to us. All the plumbers we've called have said it's nothing to do with the boiler (also in the utility room) as it's a Worcester Combi boiler.

A couple of plumbers have said that it won't cause any severe problems for pipes, fixtures, appliances etc as domestic properties are only 3 bar. I have read, though, that the hydraulic shock of water hammer can do severe damage and needs addressing early on to avoid it progressing to a very costly problem to repair. Not sure why the plumbers and plumbing websites opinions seem to differ on this.

We were going to get in touch with the water company to ask them if they can check the water pressure. We asked next door if they could hear anything and they said no, nothing at all. We also hear a clunk from their house but when she turned the taps on I suspected were a problem (they back onto our utility room) they sounded normal from her side, as did her washing machine.

Her husband has told my husband he'll come and adjust the outside stop tap in the morning but I have asked my husband to politely put him off as he is not a plumber. I am terrified he'll make it worse and a). I suspect the water company plumber set the pressure to the correct level when he fitted the new stop tap outside very recently and b) why would a plumber we called suggest an arrestor if it was as simple as adjusting the outside tap.

Can you offer any insights, PigletJohn. I'm at the end of my tether and worried a pipe will burst and leak. I just want it fixed. We will get a plumber but don't have a huge amount of money to throw at this problem so we would like to have an idea of what is most likely the cause and remedy.

I've thought about getting the washing machine disconnected and reconnected to see if that helps but I read online that if it's happening throughout the house the washing machine is likely to be another victim of the problem rather than a cause of it.

It looks like we don't share a water stop tap / feed with nextdoor if that helps...

We are currently turning taps on and off incredibly slowing and flushing as infrequently as hygienically possible... It helps but is not a fix, and of course doesn't cure the washing machine! Also, we are really hoping to sell and move asap and I know I wouldn't touch a property with this issue so I expect others wouldn't either.

Thanks so much. I really appreciate it.

@PigletJohn Thanks. I think they are plastic but some look to be copper. Does that make a big difference? Ours look like a combo 🤔

I have tried to explain a bit below but would I be better to post photos in the next day or so? My descriptions are not great and you'd know more from photos than I could detail in my convoluted ramblings!

I can't get behind the washing machine but my husband will be able to tomorrow if I ask him.
Under the kitchen sink, the setup looks like copper where they meet the base of the two-way tap, they then go to stainless steel bendy from the copper. The stainless steel joins a tiny bit more copper and then they go into white plastic piping, with other white plastic pipes / joints surrounding. Will have to find the tape and check the diameter (if that just means measuring just around the pipes).

The other side of the sink cupboard... Directly below the sink plughole has a white plastic pipe which feeds into a big brown plastic one, which then continues into a kind of upside down brown plastic horizontal pipe that runs the length of that side of the sink cupboard. There is a thinner white plastic pipe running horizontally behind the thicker brown plastic one. They all disappear into the wall.

I just quickly glanced at the set-up in the downstairs loo and the pipes (if there should be any running horizontally must be behind the wall as I can't see any). The tap pipes are hard to see (they are almost enclosed behind the vertical cosmetic base of the sink). The pipes directly from the taps feel like they are copper but the pipe that drains (below the plughole) is thicker and feels plastic.

The toilet in the same loo has a big, thick white bendy pipe at the base (almost like a big slinky shape). But there are also copper pipes and bendy steel pipes (attached to each other above the big white bendy one) coming out of the back of the loo. All these pipes disappear into the wall to the utility room but I can't see where (probably behind the washing machine and the broken condenser dryer next to it that's not been used in a good 10 months -will be a good excuse for me to get my husband to get that out and put it in the garage for disposal if it'd be helpful to see behind it)? 😁

I've not checked upstairs yet.

Would it be helpful to see pics of anything in particular? Like I said, my husband can pull the washing machine out enough to see behind it (and possibly get the old dryer out) tomorrow and I can also provide pics of under the sink, accessible pipes to toilets and taps in the kitchen and all toilets / bathrooms.

Thanks so much for your help PigletJohn. I honestly appreciate it!! 🙂

Enjoy the rest of your evening / weekend!

No, I was just thinking that water hammer happens with metal pipes, I don't know if plastic water pipes would do it as they are not so hard.

Waste pipes and soil pipes are always plastic in modern plumbing (In the last 50 years or so).

Hold into any water pipes you can reach when hammer is about to occur to see if you can find where it is worst.

P.s.

The pipes connected to the taps that look like stainless steel are probably flexi with a braided cover. Inside is a thin plastic hose. These do sometimes fail, water hammer won't do them any good. They are used because they are easier to fit than precisely cut and bent copper.

Some people are suspicious of them, especially if they are not from a reputable brand or have been twisted or bent sharply. Give them a feel and watch them for twitching during banging.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/jg-speedfit-push-fit-flexible-tap-connector-hoses-15mm-x-3-4-x-300mm-2-pack/2475g

Thank you, I wish local plumbers responded as quickly as you! 😁 I don't have the technical abilities to post photos but will look into your suggestion, am waiting for a plumber to visit for other reasons. The ensuite was fitted about 12 years ago so possibly worn out by now. (It's not tiled or boxed in, I've never thought that was a good idea either👍).

@PigletJohn Hi pigletJohn, Thanks!

Could I trouble you further to please shed light on whether you think we have two problems?

I have just been in the main bathroom upstairs (where the bath is located). The problem there also seems bad, tbh. I'm not sure if the bath, sink and loo when used there are also clunking in the downstairs utility room as well (husband is out so no one just yet to tell me) BUT the bath taps, sink taps and loo all clunk when in use in this room (and it sounds like it's definitely in the actual main bathroom iself). I've been so fixated on the washing machine that I only just realised how bad the main bathroom is! 🙄

The main taps in the bath clunk a lot when they are turned on or turned off (two taps to replaced a single tap were put in last year and the plumber broke the tiling on the bath - boxed in - to do the job so I don't know if he did something....they are stainless steel with black rubber at the bases). The sink tap does it too (it's a uni tap, push the left down and cold comes out, plus the hot down and hot comes out, as does the loo in there after flushing.
Turning all taps and off slowly helps a bit, except on the bath hot which really seems to make a noise however you turn it...quickly or slowly..

What I did notice is that the area is exposed at the back of the sink pedestal and there are copper two pipes running the length of the pedestal vertically from the taps. When I hold these pipes (both hot and cold pipes) and I turn the hot or cold sink taps on or off these both move (a kind of shudder / judder feeling and accompanying noise). If I turn the hot or cold bath taps on or off and hold these pipes behind the sink pedestal, they move then too and there is the judder/ shudder feel and noise . When I flush the loo, and touch these sink pedestal pipes I feel minimal movement in them but there is a clunk. I can't feel any toilet pipes as they are concealed apart form a big white plastic one feeding into the wall.

Does it sound like it's potentially two problems going on here, PigletJohn?

I am suspicious that this has happened or at least got worse since a plumber took out the single hot / cold tap on the bath last year and put two independent taps in.... But then, why would the noise and shuddering / juddering be happening on the copper pipes behind the sink pedestal (as far as I can tell)? Unless they are connected somehow?

I'm hoping the bath won't have to be broken again but if it must it must...

Do you think this sounds like the bath taps were badly installed?

Would arrestors on the copper pipes (on both hot and cold feeds) address the problem in the main bathroom, do you think? Or does it sound like something else....
I can take pics if it'd help you get more of an idea!

Thanks again, it really is very kind of your to share your knowledge so generously and freely on here!

@PigletJohn Sorry for the typos, hope my message still makes sense! Can't find the edit button...

@PigletJohn Just to add, definitely the bath hot is really noisy when turned off! Like a clunky judder noise...

@PigletJohn By chance a wash has just gone on and I was in the main bathroom I told you about earlier and I heard the clunking noises up there too...(wasn't quick enough to feel the copper pipes behind the sink pedestal but can try to monitor in the next day or two). This is weird, to me anyway, as the main bathroom is above the living room, not directly over the utility room (the other epicentre of the clunk!) Just thought thought that might shed light on the situation... I'm wondering if it's connected.
Btw, the copper pipes int eh sink pedestal are not 'fixed' to a wall or anything...

Thanks, PigletJohn, no rush at all. I understand it's the BH so I don't want you to feel any pressure (pardon the pun!) to reply.
Thanks again!

Are the bathroom taps ceramic? With a lever or knobs that only moves a quarter turn? Rather than a knob that screws up and down?

I will admit I am not fond of ceramic taps, but they are more abrupt in their action.

It seems strange to me that you have so many sources of hammer. Unless there is something odd about the plumbing in your house I do rather suspect unusually high water pressure.

Hi, thanks for replying. No, no ceramic taps at all, all the taps in the house are stainless steel. The bathroom sink tap looks sort of like this but you push up and down to turn on or off rather than turn.
https://www.washwareessentials.co.uk/taps/lever-operated-deck-mixer
Not as expensive or sophisticated as below, no boiling water etc, just a regular tap, but the push-up and down mechanism for turning on and off is the same:
https://insinkerator.emerson.com/en-gb/shop/insinkerator/insinkerator--1001/insinkerator-4n1j-en-gb

The ones on the bath are regular stainless steel taps, two individual ones with a black rubber seal at the base of each, they twist on and off as traditional taps do...
I will try to post some pics on Tues.

If it's high pressure, PigletJohn, can you remind me? Does that mean the stop tap outside needs adjusting? Or, does the stop tap under the sink need to be adjusted?

Would you still recommend arrestors near the sources of water hammer, even if the pressure is tweaked with? What is the best course of action if it's high pressure and happening in both the main bathroom upstairs and behind the washing machine in the downstairs utility room?

I admit I have no idea what the difference is between flow (which the neighbour obviously tinkered with) and pressure...

We're waiting to hear from a time-served plumber who promised to get back to us this weekend to book in but we've heard nothing as yet.

Thanks again for all your help! I honestly do appreciate it!

Have a great Bank Holiday tomorrow.

Ceramic is the valve mechanism inside.

Yours says

Product DetailHot And Cold Lever Deck Mixer Tap
Product Code: LDMT

• Chrome plated lever operated deck mixer tap.
• Two quarter turn levers for separate hot and cold.
• Swivel spout.
• 3" (77mm) chrome plated metal levers.
• Chrome plated brass body.
• Quarter turn ceramic disc valves.
• Copper tails.
• Metal back nut.
• WRAS approved.
• 1 years manufacturers warranty against defects.
• 2 x 22 mm tap holes required at 180 mm centres.

@PigletJohn Hi and thanks.

So sorry to have misled you. I thought a ceramic tap was one of those white matte types you can get (like this:
https://www.tapwarehouse.com/p/vellamo-aspen-mono-kitchen-tap-pearl-white?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw3NyxBhBmEiwAyofDYQyj-MGJPDSZktTqylY38Xpjsbj2ltoCUjaUBeEgB5tZLozN14gsyxoCH_8QAvD_BwE

• I didn't know it referred to an inner component.

The links I posted aren't actually our main bathroom sink taps - the sink tap just looks like the middle from the first link with the turning on and off method of the one from the second link. I have zero idea whether our taps are ceramic inside. Or, how I'd find out...

The only taps that weren't here already are the bath taps and, again, no idea what they are as the plumber must have disposed of the box they came in! The original bath tap was a mixer tap but it had to come out as the base was leaking... We opted for two singles to replace as they were cheaper. I don't think the old mixer tap made this horrible sound before it was removed and replaced with the two tap set-up.
I'm wondering if the bath taps were badly fitted - the black rubber seal on both at their bases is distorted and super squashed as if the taps have been put on too tightly. Maybe that's an issue.

If they are ceramic taps on the bath - with the abrupt action you mention - and they are fitted too tightly, that wouldn't account for the juddering noise and feel of the copper pipes inside the sink pedestal, would it? Are the ceramic type abrupt enough in their action to do that, esp if fitted too tightly?
The loo in there clunks too, though the pedestal pipe movement is minimal during flushing (and the the clunk could be coming from the utility room).

No word from the plumber. I might have to put the feelers out here to see if anyone can recommend someone in our area.

Thanks again for all your help, PigletJohn 🙂

@PigletJohn I don't know if it's a clue re ceramic or non-ceramic bath taps but they twist on and off like regular taps, turning a few times, not just a quarter turn,

Thanks again!

The quarter turn is the indicator, as is a "joystick" on mixer taps.

Taps with a rotating knob will not be ceramic, and it is unusual for them to cause hammer unless they are very worn, because they close more gradually.

There are a very few non-ceramic taps with a long lever, sometimes called surgeons taps, you can turn them on and off with your elbow so your hands do not touch them after washing. I once fitted some, they have a steeper thread on the internal screw.

I think you need to get the pressure tested.

If the problem is high pressure, you can get a pressure reducing valve, there are a few about. I have a Caleffi which used to be popular, Honeywell D05 is another reputable make, and I heard good reports of his one.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/reliance-valves-312-compact-pressure-relief-valve-with-gauge-1-5-6-0bar-22mm-x-22mm/942ty

I prefer the models with an integral pressure gauge so you can see what it's doing. The others usually have a socket you can attach a separate gauge to, not much point in buying that unless you have lots of them and want to save a few pounds.

They come in different sizes to suit your incoming pipe, if your supply is modern it will probably need a 22mm, older houses more likely 15mm.

Flow is e.g. litres per minute. A typical combi can deliver about 12 litres per minute of fairly hot water, and will take 8 minutes to fill a bath. If your incoming water pipe is able to deliver 24 litres per minute, you can probably continue to take a shower even if someone turns on a cold tap elsewhere in the house. Insufficient flow is a common problem in older houses with a small diameter incoming pipe. If you only have 12 litres per minute of hot water, and you turn on two or more hot taps, both will run slowly.

Pressure is e.g. 3 bar or 50 pounds per square inch. Like the pressure in your car tyres. If you have a cold water tank in the loft, ten metres above your ground floor, the pressure from that tank will be about 1 bar. If the incoming water pressure us less than 1 bar, it will not reach the loft tank.

Old British houses with a loft tank have low pressure tapwater from it, especially in a bathroom on he top floor, where there may be 2 metres or less of head. British bathtaps are traditionally very big, with wide waterways, able to deliver a high flow, sometimes 20 litres per minute, despite the low pressure. It can fill a bath in 5 minutes. Such bathrooms have very weak showers due to the low pressure.

A hypodermic syringe might have very high pressure through its tiny needle. But it has very low flow so it would take days to fill a bath.