Log Burner Query

[GlassCaseOfEmotions]

Hoping people more knowledgeable than me can help. I have done quite extensive Google searches but would prefer some real life advice.

Had an offer accepted on a property which was advertised with a log burner. Estate agent confirmed it was included with the property and in full working order.

Seller has now informed their solicitor they don't have a HETAS certificate. The log burner would have been installed after 2016 and I am thinking it's likely self installed.

Seller has offered to remove or have it swept. Problem is, we only plan to stay in the property 5-10 years so would encounter this same problem when we come to sell.

Is it reasonable to ask the seller to either reduce the property price in line with what it would cost to remove and reinstall (following quotes) or them to pay to have this work done prior to exchange?

We made the offer based on not having to pay out for these things ourselves. Although we are extremely keen (not desperate) to move, and don't want to let our buyer down, we are prepared to walk away if the seller refuses to reduce the cost or sort it themselves.

It shouldn't take much to get a certificate for it. Did you ask if there is a chimney liner?

Not as of yet, as I wanted to check what other people's experiences are/ what is needed to make it compliant before responding to my solicitor.

I've spoken to 3 HETAS installers who have all said they won't certify someone else's work, and it would need removing and reinstalling. They've given a ball park figure for this work, which is already several thousand before even going to see exactly what's needed.

HETAS and the council have confirmed they have no knowledge of a log burner being fitted at the property.

What would be required to get a certificate for it? How much does this cost?

I sold a property with a self installed log burner. I bought an indemnity policy to cover it.

It’s of course your prerogative to not proceed if it’s a major problem for you but I would have rejected any requests to lower the house price because of it.

We had this same issue- they reduced the price and had theirs removed. If it is self-installed, you really don't want anything to do with it as it could be dangerous (CO omissions) and also expensive (if it doesn't confirm to clean air standards)

Getting it signed off retrospectively will be difficult, as people don't want to certify someone else's work (especially someone's DIY attempts). It's not worth their certification to do it.

Getting a new one installed doesn't take long (ours took half a day and cost c £2.5k (I think? Maybe £3k?), though cheaper and more expensive models exist) and you have peace of mind.

Sadly an indemnity policy won't pay out in the event the house catches fire because of an incorrectly installed log burner, so that's not even an option for me.

Had we been told prior to making the offer that the correct paperwork wasn't in place, we wouldn't have offered at all. However, the estate agent assured us that all work carried out by the sellers had relevant paperwork and approval.

Given the state of some of the other DIY the seller has done, it is raising concerns for me that it won't be safe. If my buyer came back saying xyz needed to be done as it wasn't safe or the correct paperwork wasn't in place, I'd be happy to discuss how we proceed so everyone is happy.

Thank you. I don't remember seeing a CO alarm in the property when we viewed and the windows are not vented. I believe these are requirements from what I read.

Can I ask how you approached the seller about reducing the price to factor the work needed in? I am thinking of simply offering a reduction in cost to reflect the price to rectify, or them putting it right prior to moving in.

They've literally only offered removal or sweep. The sweep concerns me as should be able to provide 1 carried out in the last 12 months anyway, if they'd been correctly maintaining it?

3 installers have said they won't touch someone else's work unless to simply remove it!

If it was me this is what I would do.

1. ask myself if I love the property, if yes, then proceed with sale as it is.
2. once in the property, call a chimney sweep in to clean and check the chimney. Some can do a camera check to see if all is well up the chimney liner. If ok, go ahead and use it. If not ..
3. if not, just don’t use it and save up for a re install and possibly a nicer fire.

only if I loved the property would I proceed given you’ve said there might be issues with other work.

We emailed via our solicitor: basically, if you can't prove it is safely and legally installed then we need to renegotiate on the basis that we will need to rectify that. We also refused to accept insurance that was offered- I refuse to have unnecessary risk with a small child.in the house.

I don't love the property in its current state. It has tonnes of potential, but it needs a lot of work to get it to that point.

My issue with just proceeding and throwing caution to the wind is

1. we will have a newborn, 2 young kids and 2 dogs in the house as well as us. Therefore, things have to be safe
2. we increased on our original offer on the basis that we wouldn't have to pay out extra to have these features installed ourselves. We didn't offer on the off chance we can maybe use the log burner or have to save up for a whole new install anyway!
3. either the estate agent has misled us or the seller has misled the estate agent, who has inadvertently misled us

The other DIY jobs are things my DP is more than capable of fixing (previous profession and extremely competent at DIY). They will cost us money to do, but we were fully aware of them prior to offering.

Thank you, I will try this approach.

We will also have a newborn, 2 young kids, 2 dogs and then us (and I WFH) in the property. It's not a risk I'm willing to take and just see how it goes because the seller tried to save themselves a few ££££!!

Assuming there’s alternative heating. Get it removed, it will benefit your health and the air quality in your house and neighbourhood. Especially if you have a baby, cannot fathom people burning in the house with a baby’s tiny lungs,

We don't want it removed; we want it to be safe and usable.

If you don’t love the property, then renegotiate. I don’t think the estate agent is to blame though. They can only go on what they are told by the seller and no, they don’t get to check these things unfortunately.
Just be aware that in renegotiation, the seller can always decide to relist the property. Are you willing to accept the loss of the property? (recognising that you don’t love it).

I'd definitely be negotiating a lower price on the basis of it not having paperwork.

As you don't love it and it sounds like it needs work anyway I would let this one go. With 3 young children and 1 which is a baby, realistically it's going to be a hard slog in a house that needs work for the sake of a few years. It's likely the owners will just remove it themselves so you will be looking at paying up for a new installation anyway. I'd keep looking for something else.

I agree there is no comeback on the estate agent, but equally I would hope they know what they're selling and do so honestly (I had to point out a covenant in the deeds to them, which they denied was there even with it in black and white in front of me!! Claimed it wasn't in the copy they had 🤦🏻‍♀️ My conveyancer has also picked this up and queried it with the sellers solicitor).

It would be a hard blow if we did lose the property, but at this stage not an expensive 1 thankfully (only paid for searches and mortgage broker at this stage). There are many other properties locally and at the same price point, so we wouldn't be stuck as it were.

The sellers would be a bit silly to remove it themselves, given they've stated already on the TA10 it is included and their solicitor has confirmed it's included.

I don't love it as it is, but then I can't imagine anyone would love a property that was filthy and still needed some work doing. I agree it'll be a hard slog, we've done 5 years in our current property and spent £40k on major works in that time so we are no strangers to how difficult it will be.

Any advice (other than what's already been given) on how to go about this reasonably?

As the sellers are only willing to do removal or sweep, they will just remove it rather than pay to put it right. It's the cheapest option for them and if they do end up wanting to remarket, there is a possibility that a different owner wouldn't be as bothered about the fire.

I think you should keep looking, especially with things cropping up in searches. Luckily it's not an expensive outlay for you yet. IME estate agents can be a bit vague with covenants as it does mean people reconsider with houses. They are also sometimes a bit vague with paperwork, especially if some is missing. It sounds like you are in an area with some choice of properties.

We have a stove in our house that was fitted long before HETAS or the need for certificates existed. We have CO alarm in the room and it has never gone above zero.

If you want it to be usable, I would be tempted to get an installer to check it over. Even if they won’t issue a certificate, they should be able to advise on any safety issues. If any.

If they removed it, we would have grounds to take legal action as they would have deliberately misled and filled in paperwork falsely. I have already confirmed this with my solicitor when we were trying to get it put in writing that certain things were included. This would cost them far more to rectify than even installing from scratch!

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my comment about searches. I was aware of this before my solicitor was, as I checked deeds for easements, access rights and covenants before making an offer. We were stung on this before and too far down the rabbit hole to pull out, so wanted peace of mind. The estate agents weren't vague about it, they directly said 'your copy of the deeds are incorrect as we have a copy and it isn't in there'. The copy they had, if they did have any, would have been the exact same as I had.

Thank you. I do believe it isn't an issue if it was installed pre 2005, as long as the burner/ stove has service certificates etc. That's just from what I've read, so may be wrong on that!

I think having an installer go and look it over and advise is our next step. Still remains an issue if there are safety risks/ doesn't meet building regs etc. From what I can make out, after 2005 it is a legal requirement for building control to be notified of installation.

Who knew log burners could be such a headache!!

Interesting thread. Ours was installed by a company who also did our boiler. Couldnt tell you if building control were informed. I doubt anyone at the council would know about our installation, why would they?

This was about 7 years ago now so within the time you're talking about that a certificate is needed, god knows where that is

We have it swept twice a year, Im not sure I always save those certificates, they're probably somewhere around.

I think if it were me OP wI would just get someone in to check its safe rather that focusing on getting it 'signed off' which as you've found out, no one is willing to do

Or ask them to remove it, and then shop around for a good burner (we have a Charnwood C5) and installation wont be that much given the fireplace is there and already open. Its the manual work that causes a lot of the cost of installation.

We have our log burner serviced every year - a chimney sweep does it. He checks it thoroughly, sends a camera up the flue to check the liner, checks the CO / seals / burn quality. It costs us about £80.

Apparently it is a requirement that building control are informed, or it can be a £5000 fine (seems hefty, but that's what all the Google searches keep throwing up!). I would have only thought building control needed to know if it was in certain areas/ multi fuel etc so had no idea about that side of things.

I think, and may be wrong, only a certificate from the last 12 months needs to be provided if requested. My concern is the seller offering to do this, and not able to provide 1 within the last 12 months straight off the bat. Makes me concerned they've not been correctly maintaining it!

Thank you. Safety is our biggest priority, so I think getting someone to go and check it out will be our next step. I'm a worrier (you can probably tell 🤣) and just don't want to pay a higher cost on the property because of these features, and then have to pay out again to have them put right!

I will have a look at the burner you've mentioned, thank you. I've never had a log burner in my home before, so no idea which are good or bad.