Log Burner Query

[GlassCaseOfEmotions]

Hoping people more knowledgeable than me can help. I have done quite extensive Google searches but would prefer some real life advice.

Had an offer accepted on a property which was advertised with a log burner. Estate agent confirmed it was included with the property and in full working order.

Seller has now informed their solicitor they don't have a HETAS certificate. The log burner would have been installed after 2016 and I am thinking it's likely self installed.

Seller has offered to remove or have it swept. Problem is, we only plan to stay in the property 5-10 years so would encounter this same problem when we come to sell.

Is it reasonable to ask the seller to either reduce the property price in line with what it would cost to remove and reinstall (following quotes) or them to pay to have this work done prior to exchange?

We made the offer based on not having to pay out for these things ourselves. Although we are extremely keen (not desperate) to move, and don't want to let our buyer down, we are prepared to walk away if the seller refuses to reduce the cost or sort it themselves.

Thank you. My concern is the sellers can't provide a HETAS certificate for installation or a recent service report.

We would have it serviced twice a year if we proceed.

I drove myself mad (as I usually do) over thinking, over researching burners, wood or multi fuel, this brand or that brand, home installation or not, what type of flue, which company, enamel finish or cast iron, coloured or not (coloured, we have a lovely coloured one). To put on a stand or not, what sort of tiles (went for enamel panels in a beautiful pattern), what sort of hearth

Read up about everything, must have known about what the rquirements are because I look into everything in such detail but its gone out my head now its all over.

We have a CO monitor in the room as well as one in the kitchen and also an air quiality monitor.

We wouldnt be without it, I really wish we had done it before. Love it.

HETAS enginineers can self certify, so it’s only a self installation that would need reporting to the council. As in your case.

I can fully understand you want a log burner to be safe, but I think you are expecting others to sort this out for you. A Hetas certificate or building reg sign off will only give you a sign off to say it was correctly installed for the regs in 2016. You will be better off, if you wish to buy the house, getting an approved chimney sweep to check the log burner from the firebricks, the flue and sweep the chimney. I would far prefer a professional to check a chimney/log burner now that have a piece of paper saying it was ok in 2016.

For selling on, buy an indemnity and provide any prospective purchaser with the chimney checks you will undertake annually if you purchase the property.

So many people get hung up about a certificate from years ago than actually checking how things are now. For example FENSA certs from years ago rather than checking how the windows are now and part P for electrics, when you can pay £100-£200 for an electrician to check electrics and provide a safety certificate which is up to date.

I think this is what I'm doing, and now pleased to hear I'm not alone in thinking like this 🤣

DP has come home and basically said I am being ridiculous. Sometimes that's needed. So I've sent an email to the solicitor and requested it is inspected by an approved installer, and if deemed safe then happy for the seller to get it swept. If it isn't deemed safe, we will go from there!

Ah that makes sense, thank you!

Do you know if it would have to be done retrospectively? I don't want to pay someone else's fine 🙈🤣

I don't think it's unfair to expect there to be paperwork present after being informed it was all correctly done, and then being concerned when it turns out there is actually no paperwork and hasn't been maintained. I would expect any seller to put this right if they'd got it wrong/ misplaced paperwork etc!

As an example, I informed my buyers it was a 15 years guarantee on some chimney work. When I sent the paperwork to the solicitor, it turned out to be a 10 year guarantee. Informed the buyer immediately, held my hands up that I was mistaken and asked if it made any difference to them (it didn't). But I didn't deliberately mislead them and say something existed knowing it didn't at all!

I agree it would be better to get it all checked out as is now, rather than a piece of paper from nearly 10 years ago. Who knows what will come of it after it's been inspected!

Negotiation is all about finding a mutually acceptable solution, so the way I would go about it would be to offer several options.

1. Get a couple of companies to give an indication of the cost of removal and reinstallation. Take an average, and ask for a reduction to cover. This is the least risk option for you, but gives you the hassle of sorting it.
2. Offer that the vendor can get it removed and reinstalled (with HETAS certificate) after which everything is fine. You take the risk that the job is done properly and not on the cheap.
3. The vendor can get it removed and the price is dropped by the cost of installation.
4. You withdraw from the purchase. I think this would probably be the least favourite for all, although you don't appear to love the house.

I would point out too that this is all very inconvenient, but in the interests of avoiding a protracted debate, you are prepared to only take into consideration costs and not to ask for any additional reduction for the inconvenience.

We installed our own log burner

When I worked as a sales progressor we had a few sales which were held up because the seller needed to get the right certificates, requested by the bank. So it could potentially be a nightmare or your solicitor might just accept an indemnity.

Btw the chimney being self installed would absolutely not put me off

The poster saying it could be dangerous 🤣 the sellers are still alive aren't they? And it's been 8 years since they installed it. Utterly ridiculous. Surely there needs to be an element of common sense

I won't be instructing my solicitor to accept any indemnity insurance. It isn't worth the paper it is written on and makes no odds to the safety aspect, or covers any remedial costs etc.

Installing your own log burner is fine. Not following correct procedures isn't.

There does need to be an element of common sense. However, there is nothing to say the current owners use the log burner, nothing to say they have been having it serviced, nothing to say it is safe etc. So I don't think proceeding with caution is a bad thing.

We put a log burner in our rental property but did get it professionally installed. I'm sure you could get certification for it if you get it checked out?!

Thank you.

We are going to get it inspected and go from there. The inspection will be done by a HETAS installer, so if needs be they can also quote for any work that needs doing/ cost for removal and reinstall etc at the same time.

Withdrawing is the least favoured option, simply because it causes so many headaches for us/ our buyers and we would need to pay out for legal costs again on a new property. Although it isn't a huge amount we would lose, we could have removed and installed a new certified log burner and saved time for the same amount it would be to start over again!

Thank you. Sadly no one will certify it unless they've installed it!! May be an option for the seller to get it done by the company who installed it (although I do believe it was a self install, rather than a company who just didn't do paperwork!!).

Do you mean you installed yours and then got a company to certify it after?

I don’t know, sorry. The thing with building control Is once you have got them involved, you (or the House owner) can’t go back.

I sold a family members house and we knew thAt the final building reg sign off hadn’t been done as it needed a bannister and some fire boarding. I spoke to the council to find out how to go about it, which was fine, and we did what was necessary but The solicitor went a bit mad as it meant we couldn’t then do a insurance indemnity……..

I would absolutely ask the house owner to reduce the price of the house to enable you to remove the existing burner and possibly put in a new one.

We have 2 log burners, we have DEFRA approved burners and the cost of fitting, liner and burner was about 2k (each). You can spend lots more on logburners though.

No, we could have done it ourselves but we got a company to install it because of the certification issues and because we were going to rent it out, but I am surprised no one will come and sign it off, even at an inflated fee. I hope you get it sorted.

Basically, even if you use the best kind of stove properly certified, use only seasoned wood and do everything right, you are still going to be breathing in a ton of dangerous particles and so are your three children. “Safe” is a matter of degree with wood burners. They all create health risks.

Just to say OP you seem to be conflating two things, the seller hasnt got 'paperwork' is one thing but you say it hasnt been maintained

You dont know that

Lots of people do things themselves, in the old days people did their own DIY and knew how to do things

MY dad for example did everything himself in the house, he is a perfectionist so wouldnt let someone else come along and do stuff. Dont know what things are certified or not certified in that house to be honest.

Only if you're outside. A properly installed log burner shouldn't release anything inside the house. It's what goes up the chimney that is less than ideal.

I'm assuming you haven't had a full survey done on the property yet ?
I would be getting a level 3 done if your concerned about other DIY issues at the property and then lump your revised offer together for everything that comes up as an issue including the burner. If you try to chip 3k now before survey and then try to chip again afterward for other issues your going to pee off the seller. It's better to do it all in one go following showing how committed you are after spending on a good survey..

Thank you. We don't want to cause issues for us or them with building control or whoever!

The solicitors all seem to be being sensible at this stage too, so don't want to rock the boat with them 🤣

I've spoken to the estate agent this morning who is less than impressed as they have forms completed by the seller that state the certificate is in place from pre valuation stage. They're going to go and speak to the sellers with a few options and get back to me.

Thank you 😊 they've all said they won't touch someone else's work, which is fair enough I suppose in the event they miss something and it goes pear shaped!

That’s good, a good estate agents is absolutely worth their fee. Fingers crossed for you!

From a buying/ selling point of view, it's the same thing.

I agree, most people are competent enough to maintain or install things themselves. And my DP does exactly what your dad did too. I've no issue with that.

The issue is this; when it comes to selling on there has to be certain paperwork in place to evidence it has been done to a set standard. If that evidence isn't in place, it's up to a buyer to take the risk. I'm happy to take a risk on certain things, at the right price. Not at a price where I was assured there was no risk.

Houses have unexpected costs and I accept that (god don't I know it with our current property!!). This could have been avoided though if the seller had informed the estate agent, their solicitor and us correctly in the first place. I'd rather they'd said it was excluded from the sale or decorative only and then had a quiet word with us. We would have offered accordingly, rather than offer thinking and believing we wouldn't need a whole new install.

The issue is this; when it comes to selling on there has to be certain paperwork in place to evidence it has been done to a set standard

It isn’t an issue if you list the stove as non-functional. The buyers can then decide for themselves whether to use it or not.

I doubt the stove, or lack of it, would have much, if any, influence on the value of the house as whole.