Renovation cost

[Mostunexpected]

We have viewed a lovely property, but it needs a lot of work and is grade 2 listed.
It’s almost 4000 sq feet so there’s a lot of house to renovate. Plumbing needs altering with a new boiler and some new radiators, full rewire, the windows need replacing or repairing, new kitchen and 2 new bathrooms plus 2 additional toilets. Main roof is fine but a small extension bit will need a new roof in the not too distant future. It is habitable, but we’d want to get most of the work done before we moved in.
Luckily not much needs doing in terms of layout as we think it’s almost perfect for us already. We’d like to knock down one wall but I think that would be allowed.
I know this is like asking how long a piece of string is, and we’d obviously need many more viewings with professionals to get quotes for work but I wondered if anyone had a ballpark figure to know if it’s even worth my time booking additional viewings with trades people or whether to forget about it.
We are in Wales.
Thanks in advance

Somewhere between 200,000 and 500,000 I would guess? And depending on the house you might need to get listed buildings permission for the rewire, new windows,alteration of plumbing, new kitchen and new bathrooms. You will definitely need it for putting in new toilets.

We got advice on putting in a new heating and a rewire and our local planning office said both would be fine but we did have to get permission for replacing the windows. The permissions form is long and a pain in the bum but is free to complete and submit.

The high cost is because you will definitely find something you don't expect and it will cost more than normal to fix because it will need to be done in like plaster or heritage brickwork or ... (Insert random dying craft here)

Also if anyone has already done something naughty to the house, you become legally responsible for putting it right once you buy the house.

If that doesn't scare you off then you will be a brilliant grade 2 listed house owner.

Tricky. But the list you have is similar to what ours was which we bought just before covid hit. We're in the NW of England- generally fairly cheap. We did: - rewire, some new rads, all new doors/windows, new kitchen ( but we brought it with us) new pitched roof on old flat roofed extension. We also had the other 2 roofs reslated. We have a shower room and bathroom to do. I do all decorating. Ignoring the (many🙄) other things we've done which you aren't doing, many of which we did ourselves, I'd guess you're probably in for around 80-100K, ignoring the wall, but it's all very dependent on how much you will do yourselves and how 'high end' you are about fixtures and fittings. Someone who 'needed' quartz worktops, high-end kitchen units, posh underheated floors, and fancy heated taps could easily double that.
It sounds a lot, but if you look at the costings people have reported on here for individual jobs of the sort you mention, I think it will come to around that.

Edit- if the listing means wooden windows, your piece of string just got a lot longer.....

Having had family with listed houses, I'd always be upfront with the authorities about anything I wanted to do, it seems to me not only to be the right thing to do, but creates a lot less friction in the long run. Family members were told by their new neighbours that the local listings people were obstructive and horrible. But they didn't try to pull fast ones, and went to the inspectors first before doing anything. They found them very helpful- they even suggested something the family had wanted but hadn't dared to ask for because they thought it would be refused! I think inspectors sometimes get pee'd off with homeowners who are always trying to pull the wool or get away with things. If you're nice to them, they can be very constructive in helping you get solutions that work for you and for the listing.

Cant see it only being £200k

Windows- depends on size and number but our Victorian semi is £100,000k for wooden sash windows.

Our listed 1700 cottage was a fraction of that (small windows and Yorkshire sliding sashes)

@BlueMongoose was your renovation a listed building?

Don’t underestimate the impact that size has on the costs. We have a renovation of a similar size to you and the costs are so much more than previous houses.

eg cost to tile a floor - priced per meter. Cost to render a wall - priced per meter.

And that’s on top of more materials.

Thanks so much everyone.
We would definitely need permission for the windows and yes, they’re wooden. And some are completely rotten (not many). But we were hoping some could be repaired rather than complete new ones.

@JackSpaniels how many windows is that for? I was hoping nearer the 60k mark for windows but I’m probably being completely ridiculous with that.

The toilets are already there but they definitely need replacing as do the entire bathrooms. And as some stuff needs moving about within the bathrooms we’d probably need permission. Though I’ve looked through planning applications for a very similar listed house nearby and there’s loads of stuff that’s been approved (fairly recently) that I wouldn’t have thought in a million years would be allowed so I don’t think they’re super strict here.

80-100k does sound exceptionally low. If those were pre Covid prices I imagine that the cost today would be massively more just because of that. It would be amazing if it could be done for anywhere near to 100k.

I think we could afford up to maybe 250k in renovations. After all the work was done, the house would be amazing but if it was going to cost nearer to 500k I just don’t think we could do it and I don’t know what would happen if we ran out of money as our income isn’t high enough that we could save and do more work bit by bit.

DH is fairly practical. He has fitted kitchens before and done tiling. But his skills would only go so far with such a big project as this.

My aunt lived in a grade 2 listed building. Every time the smallest repair was needed, it was a nightmare, the paperwork was ridiculous, the rules about materials, very strict and everything was so slow. Not to mention the crazy costs. It took her several months to replace a chimney cowl one year, by the time she got to the point of having a man with a ladder to do the work, she was a wreck

Hmmm another who could easily see it running to 400-500k. You would have to be running an extremely tight ship with lowosh finish for 250k

Personally i have found the best way to get a good ballpark is to take your preferred contractor along to second viewing and get them to quote / rough cost it for you.

Yes ongoing costs is an issue. Our salaries go up year on year, but I suspect they’re just too low to afford the upkeep on a listed house that size (at least without giving up so much other stuff)

@GreatGateauxsby it seems like our budget isn’t absolutely ridiculous, though it would be tight. So at least now I wouldn’t feel like I’m wasting everyone’s time if I take a contractor along to roughly price it up. Thanks 😊

Can I suggest (based on a friend's current experience with a Grade 2 listed renovation project) that you talk to the local council planners before you commit. It took my friend 6 years to even get planning permission let alone start any work and there have been so many things they haven't been able to do or that planners have insisted on which have caused hold ups and extra costs. There is a Facebook group called Listed Building Owners - might be worth a look to get some insight, especially as you talk about getting work done on a budget and before you move in. Sorry to bring a note of gloom but based on her experience I'd be very cautious with a Grade 2 property- they had renovated many houses prior to this one but looking back even they were naive about what the listing meant in terms of costs and delays . Good luck whatever you decide!

Good advice here. Also to mention that you should make sure that whoever you contract to do ANY works has experience of working with listed buildings and understand the implications.

In case you’re not already aware, unauthorised works to a listed building is an offence that you AND the contractors can be prosecuted for. All renovations can reveal unexpected issues, and should that happen to you, don’t be tempted to just go along with whatever solution the contractor might suggest. You’ll need to take it to the Council’s Conservation/Heritage specialist for prior consent, so you’d benefit from building a good relationship with them from the outset.

Good luck.

I think the main issue is the unknown costs.

Also have you project managed a renovation before or would you be getting someone in to do it? Project management is an even more important role in a listed building.defonitely doable my an enthusiastic amateur if you have an organised type of brain.

Also if you want do some back ground reading on the sort of issues you might find/ come across and how to fix them then there is a great forum here https://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/forums/period-property-discussion-forum.1/

One of the main issues is managing damp whilst also insulating and heating the building. But there are ways of doing it.

I had an old (not listed) house of about 2500sq ft. I spent about £100k new kitchen (knocking down a wall) adding a bathroom and toilet to an existing bathroom and replacing ceilings which had failed plus general redecoration. Then the back bay needed rebuilding. The windows were all gradually replaced with double glazed wood sash windows at £1000 each. Then I needed to do a damp course. Then I added an extension - £40k. It's never ending with old houses, just general up keep can cost £££.
£250-500k is a good budget as so much depends on finish. But be prepared for ongoing costs. Just redecorating a few rooms a few years down the line could cost £10k or more.
If you get a builder to give you a ballpark quote, double it and double the time he says it will take. Then add another 10%!

Please, please do a very accurate costing before deciding. EVERYTHING is more expensive since Covid, not all of it justifiable!
We bought a semi derelict cottage and lived in a rented house ( promised long let) then the landlord wanted it back so we moved into the Reno ( bedrooms and bathroom upstairs were finished )with a small caravan next to the house for cooking and resting.
However……. the Reno has dragged on and on and on, we had an invasion of mice and at one point we were catching one a day and I nearly moved out I was so stressed.
We are still here, another year of self Reno to go-I won’t buy such a wreck next time!

Yes that’s such a good idea thanks @peppermum60. I realise getting approval might take some time. And obviously we would have to budget for all the costs of staying in our current rental house on top.
@3pSweet that’s another important consideration and to be honest I have no idea how to find these contractors who have experience. But it’s something we’d have to look at if we decided it was something we wanted to take on. I know we’d have to talk through any issues with the council in advance and obviously that can bring in huge delays.
@Geneticsbunny we’d want someone to project manage I think. I know that’s a big cost on top but we’ve never done any sort of renovation before and I don’t trust I’d be good enough to do the house justice and it would probably cost us a lot more in the long run. You’re right it is the unknown costs though. And we could get someone round who says 200-250k is doable, then you hit an issue and have to find another 50k (or more) and the whole sensibly planned budget goes out the window. That would stress me out a lot.
I’ll check out that forum, thanks for the link.
@mondaytosunday that price seems amazing for the windows. The house has (I think) 22 windows that would need repairing or replacing. I was optimistically thinking 3000 per window. Can I ask when that cost was and roughly where you are please?
This house quite obviously has had no decoration done in at least 40 years so we’ll have decades to save up for decorating 😆. Though really my family are ok at decorating so if it was only a room at a time that needed doing going forward, I’m sure we could do that.
@ZsaZsaTheCat do you think it was worth it though?

We have been looking for a house for over 9 months and in that time we have seen every single 4+ bed house that has come on the market in our area. This is the only one that ticks every box in terms of size of the house and garden. I feel like we will be waiting forever for something in a better condition and then no doubt we wouldn’t be able to afford it

We have just moved into a probate sale and are starting out on our renovations, no where near what you are doing but quite a lot for us ! We have just had a new combi boiler, which was relocated and flue put through the roof £4500, plus removal of all extra pipes,old boiler and re routed the gas supply. We have ordered 4 windows so far at £2600. Electrician, not a full rewire but new fuse? box and lots of new sockets and extra circuits and outside lights, making sure everything is up to current standards about £2400. We also need bathrooms and kitchen

Refurbishment of wooden windows you are looking at a lot less (closer to £1000 per window) and you might be able to argue a discount if you have that many windows. Might be worth getting magnetic secondary glazing fitted at the same time. It is relatively cheap (£50 per window plus fitting) and easy to remove it if not necessary . It has made a huge difference to the temperature in our house this winter.

Also we managed to get permission for underfloor heating. Worth considering if you are messing around with the heating anyway.

Also just to reinforce and clarify on advice to speak to the planners at your local authority. This really really should be your starting point for works of this scale. Please note that you’ll likely need listed building consent rather than planning permission. The two go hand in hand where required, but based on what you’ve said so far, it sounds like lbc will be the primary engagement. Noting also that not all conservation officers (in fact increasingly few) are Planners. Some councils contract in conservation advice, so you might want to check the arrangements for your council. I’d recommend that you consider pre-app advice, which is a paid service to discuss your proposal with the conservation officer (and planner, if required). The Conservation Officer would typically visit your property to walk-through your proposal and report on the tolerances to conserve, enhance, etc the integrity, architecture, character of the property. Note that I say property, and not building, as please keep in mind that works within the grounds including boundary treatment - gates, piers, fencing etc, may also need lbc/planning permission.

The pre-app also gives you a firm steer as to the council’s view on your proposal and is set out in a written report. I just remembered that your op mentioned removing a wall? Please check and not assume - I’ve seen disastrous results when owners of LBs have undertaken seemingly innocuous work, only to have to reverse the works. Made all the more stressful when they’ve had to source like-for-like materials and detailing that needs specialist craftsmanship.

Lastly, you mentioned work to the roof in due course. You might want to explore whether you may be eligible for any grants to restore the LB.

m Very lastly, the Council cannot recommended contractors, but you could certainly ask them for examples of other buildings in the Borough that have been renovated to acceptance standards. You can then look on the planning system and locate the details of the contractors, or better still, contact the owners of those properties and ask for their details. Would also be a opportunity for you to get direct insight and feedback into how the particular contractor works.

@ThePittts that sounds like excellent value for the things you’re getting done. I hope everything goes really well with the renovation!

The currently EPC puts it at 16! So we’d have to do everything we could to try to improve that and reduce energy bills which are currently astronomical.
If we could put in the secondary glazing I think that would help a lot and that sounds a really cheap option. I was also hoping they might let us replace the really bad windows with double glazed ones, then maybe repair the not so bad ones depending on the cost difference.
The heating would need a lot of changing. The radiator pipes come out of the middle of the wall and there’s random huge pipes everywhere but DH doesn’t see that there’s anything wrong with that. So underfloor heating could possibly be incorporated at the same time.

I’m aware we’d absolutely have to check they’re ok with us removing a wall. I suspect it’s not actually an original wall because that room is so small I can’t believe it would have been built that way - it looks so weird on the plan, and just as strange in person. But at the same time if they said we couldn’t remove the wall, we’d just have a weird skinny room and I’m sure we’d find a use for it. The other rooms would still be big enough.l without adding that extra space on.

Thanks for the tip - if we could get help towards the roofing costs that would be great, though I know you can’t rely on getting anything. I’ll check out if there’s anything available and eligibility criteria.

That’s also such a good way to find a contractor. It’s a shame the council can’t provide a list of trusted contractors to make sure work is done to a good standard but seeing examples of the work world be really helpful as well.

So much to think about. But I really appreciate all the tips and advice so much

We renovated a similar sized property about ten years ago. We spent around £220K all in. It wasn’t listed, but we did it as authentically as possible - new timber sash windows etc. But as I say, that was over a decade ago so it would probably cost near double that now, and we’re in NW of England.

You really don’t appreciate the increased costs until you have a big house (with high ceilings). The cheapest quote we could get just to have the hall, stairs and landing plastered was £20K!! Even ‘cheap’ things like painting cost so much more. If your skirting boards are a foot deep, and there’s 50m of them in a large room, you’re looking at gallons of gloss rather than a small tin that you’d use in a normal house.

Dont go into it with your eyes closed. Contact some trades for ballpark quotes on certain jobs before you make an offer, or you could end up with a massive millstone round your necks.

It’s times like that I wish we came from a family of tradespeople!

I saw the cost and thought great… until I saw it was a decade ago. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect costs to have roughly doubled since then.

The ceilings are actually a completely normal height as are skirting boards, but costs are just so high. The walls look in good condition but even fixing everything after doing wiring and plumbing work will require a decent amount of replastering. In our previous house we struggled to even get people to quote to do work in the first place and that was a boring normal house. Add in the fact this house is over 3 times bigger, and is listed and I suppose those that do bother to quote will be asking whatever they want

You will need listed buildings consent to put double glazed windows in. We got the people renovating the window to replace the single glazing with thin profile double glazed panels in the existing frames and we had to get listed building consent for doing that. Not sure it made much of a difference to temperature. The secondary glazing made a bigger impact.

Also I have looked high and low and I am reasonably certain that grants for restoring listed buildings don't exist any more. If you find any please let me know.

A couple of links for you as a good starting point:

https://historicengland.org.uk/advice/your-home/improvement/

https://historicengland.org.uk/services-skills/grants/

You could also ask the Planning Department if their S106/CIL allocation extends to applications for restorative works to Listed Buildings.