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Original poster

Who pays the Council Tax?

50 replies

Soothsayer01 · 25/12/2023 06:53

I was living in a separate annexed apartment in England, which formed part of the landlords house, except I had my own bathroom, living room and kitchen as well as bedroom, and my own front door/entrance. I shared a driveway and postbox with the landlord but that was it. The annex did however obviously fall under the same address as the landlords property, because it was all one property.

Although the annex was separate, in one room, he has blocked the door off into his house with a solid partition, and pushed a wardrobe in front of it. In the other apartment next door, also an annex, there is a proper wall partition. I lived there first and then moved to the other one, and he now rents out that one too.

There was no rental agreement and the landlord asked me to pay cash every month. He also asked me not to have any HMRC or government type mail sent to this address.

Who do you think the council would say should be responsible for the council tax for the annex in which I lived?

OP posts:
Babamamananarama · 25/12/2023 07:02

It's not necessarily obvious that it's all one property for council tax purposes - our neighbour split his very large house into three apartments (top/middle/bottom floors with top and bottom rented on air bnb) and he re-demised the top and bottom floors as business premises (I think) for council tax purposes even though one of them was not completely separate.

I guess however since your landlord has failed to issue you with a contract saying what you are and aren't responsible for he'd have a hard time backing it up if he does expect you to pay a separate council tax.

Original poster
Soothsayer01 · 25/12/2023 07:04

Babamamananarama · 25/12/2023 07:02

It's not necessarily obvious that it's all one property for council tax purposes - our neighbour split his very large house into three apartments (top/middle/bottom floors with top and bottom rented on air bnb) and he re-demised the top and bottom floors as business premises (I think) for council tax purposes even though one of them was not completely separate.

I guess however since your landlord has failed to issue you with a contract saying what you are and aren't responsible for he'd have a hard time backing it up if he does expect you to pay a separate council tax.

Does it make a difference if I lived there for an extended period of time ie several years?

OP posts:
YireosDodeAver · 25/12/2023 07:11

If it has its own kitchen it is a separate dwelling for council tax purposes.

If your landlord doesn't want you to have official mail there, they are trying to hide the details from HMRC and they are seriously dodgy.

I would hunt for somewhere else to live ASAP. I have no idea if you will be held liable when the tax man fibds out what's going on but it will be messy.

Original poster
Soothsayer01 · 25/12/2023 07:16

YireosDodeAver · 25/12/2023 07:11

If it has its own kitchen it is a separate dwelling for council tax purposes.

If your landlord doesn't want you to have official mail there, they are trying to hide the details from HMRC and they are seriously dodgy.

I would hunt for somewhere else to live ASAP. I have no idea if you will be held liable when the tax man fibds out what's going on but it will be messy.

Even though all bills and utilities were included in the rent and it had the same address as his house?

OP posts:
Whataretheodds · 25/12/2023 07:19

If "all bills and utilities included on rent" and you paid up to date then you've paid what you owe and your landlord is responsible for making sure bills and utilities are paid, including council tax.

Original poster
Soothsayer01 · 25/12/2023 07:21

Whataretheodds · 25/12/2023 07:19

If "all bills and utilities included on rent" and you paid up to date then you've paid what you owe and your landlord is responsible for making sure bills and utilities are paid, including council tax.

But there's no rental contract to prove that although obviously there were never any utilities listed under my name at that property

OP posts:
HappilyContentTheseDays · 25/12/2023 07:23

I'm no expert in these things but purely from my own experience of renting, I would say the landlord is responsible for the council tax. The place clearly isn't listed as being divided into flat(s) and therefore will be still classed as one property. Sounds like your landlord has done it in a 'dodgy' fashion from what you've written, but this can be perfectly acceptable legally.

I live in a huge property which is totally divided up into dozens of small apartments. However, for utilities and council tax purposes, it is still one place. There is just one council tax bill and one set of meters for water, electricity etc. The landlord pays all this but asks for a small, set amount from each resident to cover all these bills (a mere £10 per month for each bill, so very reasonable indeed). This is all legally done.

Original poster
Soothsayer01 · 25/12/2023 07:24

HappilyContentTheseDays · 25/12/2023 07:23

I'm no expert in these things but purely from my own experience of renting, I would say the landlord is responsible for the council tax. The place clearly isn't listed as being divided into flat(s) and therefore will be still classed as one property. Sounds like your landlord has done it in a 'dodgy' fashion from what you've written, but this can be perfectly acceptable legally.

I live in a huge property which is totally divided up into dozens of small apartments. However, for utilities and council tax purposes, it is still one place. There is just one council tax bill and one set of meters for water, electricity etc. The landlord pays all this but asks for a small, set amount from each resident to cover all these bills (a mere £10 per month for each bill, so very reasonable indeed). This is all legally done.

Sorry it can be legally acceptable to do it in a dodgy way?

OP posts:
MoveOnTheCards · 25/12/2023 07:24

Then there’s also no contract for the landlord to call on to make you pay.

However this is all really dodgy and you’re in a very precarious position @Soothsayer01 so I would be looking for somewhere more above board to rent, with a contract that gives you clarity and a bit more legal cover/security.

Whataretheodds · 25/12/2023 07:38

Soothsayer01 · 25/12/2023 07:21

But there's no rental contract to prove that although obviously there were never any utilities listed under my name at that property

Show quote history

How did you know all bills and utilities were included? Any texts or emails to this effect?

Tbh assuming if you are/were the tenant then based on your description of this landlord they also won't have abided by any of their legal responsibilities so they will have no leg to stand on. If they try to threaten you/legal proceedings they'll most likely end up not only owing you money but paying fines (plus fines for unpaid tax).

Did you pay them a deposit? Are you out now/ Have you had it back?

unsync · 25/12/2023 07:49

HappilyContentTheseDays · 25/12/2023 07:23

I'm no expert in these things but purely from my own experience of renting, I would say the landlord is responsible for the council tax. The place clearly isn't listed as being divided into flat(s) and therefore will be still classed as one property. Sounds like your landlord has done it in a 'dodgy' fashion from what you've written, but this can be perfectly acceptable legally.

I live in a huge property which is totally divided up into dozens of small apartments. However, for utilities and council tax purposes, it is still one place. There is just one council tax bill and one set of meters for water, electricity etc. The landlord pays all this but asks for a small, set amount from each resident to cover all these bills (a mere £10 per month for each bill, so very reasonable indeed). This is all legally done.

That's an HMO though, different regulations for fire detection etc and must be registered and inspected by LA.

Gingerkittykat · 25/12/2023 08:02

Are you on the electoral register?

Where are yu meant to get your HMRC, DVLA letters etc sent to?

Original poster
Soothsayer01 · 25/12/2023 08:03

Whataretheodds · 25/12/2023 07:19

If "all bills and utilities included on rent" and you paid up to date then you've paid what you owe and your landlord is responsible for making sure bills and utilities are paid, including council tax.

I can't see how to reply on here without 'quoting' so in answer to your other post, yes I've moved out and I used my deposit as last months rent but I feel I need closure based on the way he treated me.

OP posts:
Karmatime · 25/12/2023 08:04

Your landlord has divided the property into 2 separate dwellings - a dedicated kitchen would mean it counts as a separate dwelling - which means it should be liable for 2 lots of council tax, plus they are not declaring rental income for tax purposes. Although all your utilities are supplied from the main house you have no assurance that they are safety checked.

Berthatydfil · 25/12/2023 08:05

HappilyContentTheseDays · 25/12/2023 07:23

I'm no expert in these things but purely from my own experience of renting, I would say the landlord is responsible for the council tax. The place clearly isn't listed as being divided into flat(s) and therefore will be still classed as one property. Sounds like your landlord has done it in a 'dodgy' fashion from what you've written, but this can be perfectly acceptable legally.

I live in a huge property which is totally divided up into dozens of small apartments. However, for utilities and council tax purposes, it is still one place. There is just one council tax bill and one set of meters for water, electricity etc. The landlord pays all this but asks for a small, set amount from each resident to cover all these bills (a mere £10 per month for each bill, so very reasonable indeed). This is all legally done.

This may be legal for water, utilities, insurance and maintenance I dont think its legal for council tax unless you are all students or other exempt accommodation type.

For example single bedsits in an elderly residential complex all have separate council tax bills - albeit at the lowest banding possible. So if you have an separate address and your own front door each tenant should be paying council tax.

Local authorities get updates from the HMRC Valuation Office on new builds and conversions and also cross reference property records to planning and building regulations. So unless this is very recent your landlord is acting illegally.

£10 a month wouldn't touch the sides of your utilities though so that doesnt make sense unless you are paying a very high rent.

GreatGateauxsby · 25/12/2023 08:05

The advice on here...🙈

Either you are a lodger or a tenant.
What does your contract say? It makes a difference

ViaRia01 · 25/12/2023 08:07

There’s no official correct answer as the set up is not official. You asked who would the council consider responsible for paying the council tax for the separate dwelling… but as far as the council is concerned there is not separate dwelling.

Original poster
Soothsayer01 · 25/12/2023 08:08

GreatGateauxsby · 25/12/2023 08:05

The advice on here...🙈

Either you are a lodger or a tenant.
What does your contract say? It makes a difference

The landlord told me I was a lodger but I had my own entrance, kitchen, lounge and he partitioned off access between his property and the annexes. However all are part of the same huge building and have sane address and post box. There's no contract, landlord would only take cash.

House is worth around 1.2million. LL earns about 90k.

OP posts:
tenbob · 25/12/2023 08:11

Karmatime · 25/12/2023 08:04

Your landlord has divided the property into 2 separate dwellings - a dedicated kitchen would mean it counts as a separate dwelling - which means it should be liable for 2 lots of council tax, plus they are not declaring rental income for tax purposes. Although all your utilities are supplied from the main house you have no assurance that they are safety checked.

No, I don’t think that’s always true
it depends also on what sort of planning permission, if any, it has

We have a house with a separate detached annex. It has its own kitchen, bathroom, heating system etc

But when the previous owners got planning permission for it, it was classed as ‘ancillary accommodation’ and therefore doesn’t have a separate council tax bill.

We’ve since done several other planning applications and the council have visited, so are fully aware of the layout etc but haven’t seen any need to issue a separate council tax bill.

NigelHarmansNewWife · 25/12/2023 08:16

Try reading at least the OP's posts @GreatGateauxsby

OP - not having a written contract works both ways. Very difficult for the LL to argue council tax was on top of your monthly payment which included bills and that you should pay it directly to the council. A tenancy is created if you are paying rent monthly even if you've no written tenancy agreement. The fact you were there for years suggests the LL accepted your monthly payment covered the bills, including the council tax. If that wasn't the case he should have notified the council you were living there when you moved in.

You already know he was dodgy af. You could always contact HMRC about his business affairs... Also if your deposit wasn't in a deposit protection scheme he may want to back off if he's saying you owe money because of the way the place was left.

CCL333 · 25/12/2023 08:16

Soothsayer01 · 25/12/2023 08:03

I can't see how to reply on here without 'quoting' so in answer to your other post, yes I've moved out and I used my deposit as last months rent but I feel I need closure based on the way he treated me.

Show quote history

When you say you need closure, do you mean you want to report him & get him into trouble? I’d steer clear of that approach. If it’s found to be a separate property for council tax purposes, the council could chase YOU for the money and then it will be up to you to try to reclaim from the landlord.

Whataretheodds · 25/12/2023 08:17

Soothsayer01 · 25/12/2023 08:03

I can't see how to reply on here without 'quoting' so in answer to your other post, yes I've moved out and I used my deposit as last months rent but I feel I need closure based on the way he treated me.

Show quote history

OK then He'd be mad to come after you. Has he given any suggestion that he will?

Myfirstsecondthird · 25/12/2023 08:20

We have a separate annex we rent out (separate entrance etc similar to yours though it is completely separate). Although eg water bills are joint as there is one meter, Internet is joined as there is 1 link (though electricity is separate meters) we are liable for separate council tax for the annex. So you need to check the specific situation

NigelHarmansNewWife · 25/12/2023 08:20

You can easily check online whether the house has more than one entry for council tax via the gov.uk council tax website.

Berthatydfil · 25/12/2023 08:23

A friend had an annexe where her mil lived. It had its own front door but was accessible internally through a connecting door.

This was not classed as a separate property for Council Tax due to the fact it was not entirely separated.
The fact that the owner then could lock, or even block up these connecting doors would never be identified subsequently unless a tenant/former tenant whistle blew or the owner decided to legally separate them and sell them individually.

If the property was inspected it would be pretty easy to rectify at least in the first case by just unlocking the door/moving furniture and I suspect that taking down a stud /plasterboard partition would be fairly easy to do and then put back later.