Landlord opinion wanted re.major refurbishment

[VeryWorriedTenant]

Could any landlords, or tenants with similar experiences, give me their opinion or advice about what we're going through right now?

After years of very cheap rent, but hardly any repairs, landlord now wants to totally gut the place. It's a very old house, should really be listed, and he wants to replace all the windows and doors, new kitchen, re-plaster bedrooms, you name it. Trouble is, it needs an asbestos refurbishment survey which our research suggests is not possible with extant tenants. And then the asbestos will have to be removed to do the windows. But he and the agents are refusing to listen to our worries about quiet enjoyment and loss of amenity and are calling us obstructive and difficult. Are we being unreasonable to think this is far more than a tenant should have to put up with? Is this not the sort of work you'd do between tenants?

We're in Scotland, so we have the protection of the Tier 1 tribunal system, and the current cap on rent increases. It seems to us that they are trying to drive us out as they can't currently evict or put the rent up to the level these refurbishments would be appropriate for. We have seen some worrying things said in the agents reports about discussions needed about "market rent", and as they can't increase it to that level with us still living there it seems they are trying to make us leave.

It's been desperately worrying, and it doesn't feel like our home anymore.

Well, it sounds like the landlord wants to improve and upgrade the property and then start charging rent at market rate. Which I guess is their prerogative, though I appreciate it is not helpful for you 🙁

Seems very clear to me that they want you to leave, so they can do up the house and then charge a whole lot more for it. You're being naive if you think they have any intention of doing it while you're living there; the last thing any builder / developer wants is to be doing work around a tenant.

Check your legal rights about the tenancy with someone in the know (I'm not Scottish) but if you've been paying under market rent for a long while and no maintenance has been done to the property then maybe they have a legitimate claim to want bring the house back into better habitable condition.

They may decide to pay you off to get you to leave (again, don't know the law in Scotland, but I know a couple of people with long-standing protected tenancies in England who have faced this).

As an aside, tip off the heritage officer at your local planning team if you think a historic house which should be listed may be at threat of an unsympathetic refurb. Give them some time to look into getting it listed before the things come to a head with the landlord.

Can't really comment as not in Scotland but you would be insane to stay while they deal with asbestos. I was told at least three months vacant after asbestos removal ( hot air heating system no longer in use and currently boxed in). Also I'd not risk any future claims on me for disturbing asbestos either. I would only do this during a vacant period, but at the same time if the asbestos flu ( sp?) Was damaged ie in a storm, I'd have no choice but to evist if I had to remove it. There's no easy answer if it has to done. You can't let a rental just rot around tennants.

@Fi269 We've been complaining about damp for years, and have started action against them with the tribunal for repairs we have in Scotland.
We have actually started the process for getting the house listed, it would be a terrible shame if it was gutted. The windows don't need replacing.
We're far from naive, but they must think we are because they've been pretending they were doing it for us.

@DyslexicPoster That's interesting about asbestos, and what we'd expect for our safety. The work doesn't need to be done, it seems they just want to make it more appealing for the level of rent they could easily get in this area.
It seems our ten years as really good tenants count for nothing.

While it’s difficult and stressful for you, in reality why would the 10 years count? LL are there to make a profit, they can make more money worth it upgraded. It’s a business they’re not friends.

@Stopaskingmequestionsandputthegerbildown I don't know, because it's our home and we've paid a very rich man the cost of a small flat for it in that time? Jesus.

If you can’t stay in the property while the works are going on then they have to pay for your accommodation elsewhere.

I have to say, it is difficult to do all those works if the same tenant has been there for 10 years. It would be near constant disruption for you surely. It makes much more sense to do everything at once.

I get it, it’s your home and it’s upsetting but the fact that you r been there for x years won’t mean jack

I should think the damp is going to cause issues to the asbestos. The reality is you seem to be prioritising your cheap rent over your health.
I think you should move tbh it's not worth the aggro.

@1vandal2 I am not in any way prioritising our cheap rent over anything. It's a very real point that a landlord cannot currently put up the rent by a significant amount in Scotland, that's my point. We are very concerned about the damp, which is why we started the action against the landlord.

I asked for advice from people with experience of this, not judgement. Moving when you're a private tenant is a fucking nightmare, no one wants to do that unless it's absolutely necessary.

It’s not judgement though it’s just fact. You understandably enjoy the cheap rent. You equal don’t want disruption. LL understandably wants to make money. Works and potential increase income = getting you out is desirable. Sounds like he/she will do it around you to ‘encourage’ you out. Unfortunately highlighting the damp may have made them think feck it well do it all on one go and up the rent. I guess it’s lucky they can’t up it while you’re out . Maybe Shelter can give you more detailed legal advice?

Maybe the landlord genuinely can’t afford the repairs the property needs because of the cheap rent you’ve been enjoying and he can’t afford to put you up elsewhere while the work goes on.

It might be the law that the rent can’t be increased to a reasonable market rate, but that doesn’t mean the landlord can afford it. If he’s forced to sell because it’s become unaffordable you’d be evicted anyway.

You said you are in the process of trying to get it listed.

May I ask why you are doing that, when it is not your home?

Are you aware that any works your LL gets done on a listed building may cost two or three times and much, and take three times as long?

With respect to your situation, which doesn't sound great, it could be the reason your LL is trying to push you out is because you are trying to force a process on his house that he didn't ask for, that is going to end up costing him an a absolute fortune.

There was a lady on here a few months ago in Scotland who had a quote for window replacements on a five bedroom house for her listed home. They were coming in at 110k because listed buildings have restrictions - you can't just bung any old uPVC double glazed in if your listed has original sash, single paved windows.

Perhaps consider letting the listed thing drop and see if your LL backs off on the refurb.

It’s not up to you to try to get your LL building listed. What an absolute pain in the arse for them if you are successful. If I was a LL that would properly piss me off.

Also I don’t think you have a leg to stand on if you have damp that you have needed resolved and have lodged a complaint about that the LL is taking action to renovate, whether or not that now negatively impacts you.

i think you are right in your assumption. After 10 years, the Landlord wants to do extensive renovation, in part due to your requests, and in part to preserve the value and utility of their property. To pay for it the rent will need to go up significantly.

I would start looking for a new place.

It’s not unreasonable for them to want to maintain it and charge market rent

tbh I’d try and work with them and be as flexible as possible because from LL point of view it makes perfect sense to get u out renovate and re let to someone else

Possibly cheap rent influenced you not to peruse repairs

and LL didn’t maintain as he should as wasn’t charging full rent and you were basically getting a property to the std appropriate for how much rent you were paying

unless you have an historical interest in buildings and tried to get other buildings listed it sounds like your just getting yours listed out of spite

It isn't judgement- it's facts!

And If I were you, I'd stop this action of trying to get it listed and move out. That is incredibly spiteful. It is NOT yours. And you know once a house carries listed building status, it cannot be altered in any way without permission from the local planning authority.

For that alone, I would kick you out.

You are at the point of no return in a civil LL/tenant rship if you are taking him to a tribunal and all this other unpleasantness. You are willing to stay in the damp and absestos- or you just want minimal work done so your low rent is preserved?

With what interest rates are( if there is still a mortgage) and what the works will cost, and all the stress, he has zero incentive to keep you as tenants. And you are not going to get a good reference either. As you say 'Moving when you're a private tenant is a fucking nightmare, no one wants to do that unless it's absolutely necessary', but it has become a neccesity. LL doesn't want you- and understandably so!

Ball's really in your court, you can drag it out, but ultimately he will still be able to evict you.

so the issue is that he's rich. Then you should have taken the money you paid over a decade and bought a small flat...

Very telling you've only decided after 10 years/ threats of eviction that it needs to be listed.

Tricky, the windows might not need replacing by your standards but I can see the logic that if you've started action against landlord and they're sorting all the work it makes sense to do some preventative bits that mean it won't need work again for a long while. Are tje current windows double glazed?

I've worked in this area previously (legal support for tenants) and think you would struggle to get support from a court to limit the scope of works done. You're going to need temporarily rehousing anyway while asbestos works go on (absolutely they are necessary) so what harm is it to do other jobs at same time

So you are living in a damp flat with asbestos. And you have complained repeatedly about the damp. Now the landlord is doing the right thing and fixing it (which is a very messy and disruptive job) and you are complaining? Do you want something done about the damp or not?

if he’s taking the trouble of getting builders in for this then it makes sense to do a few other things to make the flat a better place to live. In 10 years houses/ flats do need attention.

Then of course once it’s all done it will be a better flat and of course will be worth a higher rent. This is not unreasonable.

i do think the work will be really disruptive and you shouldn’t be expected to stay while it’s going on. I’ve had friends whose landlord has paid for alternative accommodation/ hotel while it’s going on. Or reduced rent as compensation.

I get this is a really annoying situation for you. But one way or another it does sound like the flat does need urgent work done on it.

My opinion (which you've asked for in your OP) is that you are being obstructive and difficult, just as the LL/agent says. I've been a tenant, a LL and letting agent and here's my take on it. The only caveat is I'm it familiar with the Scottish system, but I think what I'm about to say is still relevant.

1. You've complained about damp to the extent that you're taking tribunal action against the LL.

1. The LL is going to deal with the damp. He'll probably have to hack plaster off walls to tank them and in doing so, he's going to need to rip out the kitchen and all sorts to do a proper job. There's no way tenants would be able to stay to do that work, so he may as well do a decent refurb of the whole property while it's empty and he's got builders in by doing the doors, windows etc. because by your own admission, not much has been done for 10 years.

1. Because he's got to disturb the fabric of the building, he needs to do an asbestos survey and any remedial work to ensure safety of workers and tenants.

1. The rent will have to go up to reflect the improvements, but after all, you've been taking tribunal action against him so he assumes you will be pleased that he's taken those steps.

1. You've tried to get an unlisted building listed. It doesn't belong to you, and unless you're a conservation officer it's really not your remit. Do you have any idea of the implications for the LL? He'd probably end up selling it because it will no longer be an attractive investment as a rental property.

It seems to me that you've had a cheap rent and little disturbance for 10 years because not much maintenance has been done and you've had to put up with damp. Now you've complained about the damp and the LL is doing something about it and you don't like it because you've realised it's going to cost and inconvenience you.

This is why so many LLs are selling up, leading to rents being sky high and 25 people applying for every property that comes to the market. I don't Think really see how you thought the LL can deal with the damp with you in situ.

I agree with this I’m afraid. I very much sympathise with your situation, I’ve seen firsthand how bad the rental market is right now, and legally can only suggest that you take specialist advice from a rent advisory group in Scotland. But as a landlord I would be extremely unhappy about you as a tenant applying to have my property listed - that really isn’t up to you - and I also don’t really see how they could do extensive damp repairs without moving you out anyway? That’s extremely disruptive and will involve them going into the walls (and therefore would probably necessitate the asbestos survey anyway). It’s normal that if they’re going to do all of that they would want to take the opportunity to do other necessary renovations as well as it would be more expensive and disruptive to do them separately.

Also they probably want to rush through door and window replacement now ahead of the listing you’ve applied for so that it doesn’t cost them a fortune to install specialist ones, as explained by a PP.

If a historic building is special enough to warrant listing, then it should be listed.

Owners don't get to choose; the heritage value of a property is a decision made by Historic England (or whatever is the equivalent body in Scotland / Wales / NI).

The OP is doing the right thing by notifying the relevant authorities if she feels a heritage asset is at risk of unsympathetic renovations.

However PP's are right that it won't endear her to the landlord. But she's not necessarily doing it out of spite, she's doing it to protect a special building.

10 years into living in it. Right. Her intentions are pure.