Is it a pain to own a Grade II house?

[NinNinJin]

Viewing a grade 2 house in a couple of days and it is gorgeous but def need work to be done. Is it a bankruptcy project? We are not made of money. The house is comfortably within our budget but I would not want to drown us.

It is just nothing is coming for sale and I'm becoming a bit desperate.
Tell me your stories of dealing with grade 2.

Apologies, I oversimplified and lost quite a bit in the process. The point I was trying to make is that anything within the curtilage could be part of the listing and so for the purposes of a house purchase and the risk assessment should be assumed to be unless you can find evidence that it isn't. Out of interest how can you find out which bits are and aren't specifically included in the protection of the listing? I assume temporary structures like sheds and climbing frames would be excluded automatically unless they are specifically mentioned.

I stopped looking at listed homes a while back just because j thought, well if i cant really do what i want with it inside and out, then do i really own it? So something to think about?

With a listed house like this one, you need to buy it at the right time. That’s after a major renovation has taken place, say within 20 years of the last one.
This place seems to have gone 50 years without even decorating, let alone anything else.

Go in with the expectation that you're "only" going to redecorate and anything else would be a bonus.

We've only had minor exterior repairs done. Had to be done by someone approved, and had to fill in paperwork, cost about twice what I think it might have cost in another house.

Those windows are absolutely gorgeous, but I don't even want to imagine the time and expense of maintaining them, let alone replacing them if/when necessary...... 😬

We've done up two listed properties, currently live in one of them. Both were in a very poor state when we took them on (some combo of dangerous boiler/ damp/ decrepit kitchen/ dodgy floors/ subsidence) as well as needing new carpets, redecoration etc. I love our current house - huge rooms, lovely internal features, beautiful windows - and would happily buy a Grade II listed house again. We've not had big problems with the council over planning, either (two different councils).

With that house, I would be prepared for some large bills and for secondary glazing to be difficult and expensive if you don't want a cold house and massive heating bills in winter. You might want to try and get a quote and see if that would be possible in your budget. You could always do it in stages - we've secondary glazed parts of our house in 2 or 3 stages. It's also worth remembering that cold bedroom are fine, it's cold living areas that sap the soul. You'd need to go round all the doors with that insulating stuff, you can see daylight through the gap between front door and jamb.

I'd also get a full survey done by a conservation specialist, and with things like the obvious damp get a ball park quote and use this to haggle with the vendor (assuming the house isn't already priced very low to allow for the fact that it needs expensive work). Damp is eminently fixable (though I wouldn't fancy living in a house during the work again...).

You don't have to do everything at once, but enough that you can live in the house in reasonable comfort and do the rest in stages.

Also, what looks like panelling doesn't look original - it's either fake or has ben hacked about horribly.

A little update after the viewing. It is gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous. So spacious. The layout is fascinating. It has an amazing potential. The garden is crazy! Real deep caves!
But gosh the amount of work. We visited it on a very windy and rainy day. So the windows are leaking. Not too drafty but there is water around frames. The tiles are coming off (damp?). I could see mould on walls and the most upsetting thing. Multiple spots of what very clearly looked like dry rot. And also leaks on the ceiling but not under the bathroom.
It is a suicide to consider getting it, right?

They have already had two offers.
Not bothered by absence of parking too much. We'd need to get a permit. Steps are difficult with the pushchair but even that is not my biggest concern

There is a upvc window in the attic. Great but it would be picked up by the survey right?

Really depends on whether you want to spend the time and money on it and how much will be and whether at that price makes financial sense. Tradespeople won't be keen on the difficult parking and access so maybe worth phoning for a quote to see what say. If there are 2 offers bidding could go high with a third. Though you don't know what offers are and by whom.

uPVC window in attic would be picked up on a full survey and it would depend if they had permission or not whether would need to redo. Sometimes when not visible from street or in an extension etc they are more flexible.

Treating dry rot and mould is it a 100K exercise or more?

Honestly if you’re prepared to live with the disruption it all depends on what you pay for it. So I think I would get a decent builder with experience of g2 listed buildings to price up what you know needs doing (window repairs, roof repairs, dry rot treatment and damp) and then add a contingency, then only offer what you can afford ensuring that you still have the money to do it up. Make that offer subject to survey (it is anyway but just to manage expectations). Budget to rent somewhere for at least 3/6 months if you’re dealing with dry rot (and bearing in mind you might need to rent somewhere during spring/ summer where I imagine it will be pretty expensive there).

I would get a person in to quote with experience of grade 2 and also ask them if it would be viable to live in house whilst work done for a family. We have never moved out just moved rooms but if it is needed that can add a lot. I would add an amount onto quotes as well, they often charge more than quote if an estimate. So our kitchen quote was 10k and it's currently at 12k.

The dry rot could be anywhere from a few grand to 20k plus, depending on how bad it is and how much plaster/ timber needs removing. You could simply have to replace a bit of plaster but you could have to replace entire joists, all of which would obviously require listed buildings consent. So you need a specialist to look at that really.
The painfulness (or not) of a renovation like this really just comes down to how much money you can afford to spend and how comfortably you can afford to live in the meantime.

And also consider having toddlers and work in house, we did it, toddlers thought it was great but for me it was working and coming back to cleaning and chaos. Also sometimes had to do extra hours in nursery when needed small people out the way. Similar with pets.

It is a misconception that you need to treat dry rot with chemicals. You don’t. However, dry rot is indicative of long-term problems with water ingress and damp in the fabric of the building, which may be very expensive - particularly if there is severe rot in structural timbers eg roof, door and window lintels, joist ends, etc.

Oh we don't need to rent. We can wait for as long as needed where we are now. Time is not critical. I guess around a year of works would me my mental max)))

We owned a grade 2 listed Georgian townhouse in London. The council owned it originally and ripped out literally everything from the inside, so there were no original Fireplaces or anything like that. They sold to a private owner in the 90s. There were no extensions. We bought it in 2010 from the private owner, and we asked to put in a stud wall on the top floor to create a bathroom on that floor. The council said no, “because the layout was literally the only Georgian thing left”. It was so annoying. We weren’t asking for anything affecting the listing, and they said no. I personally would never bother with the capriciousness of councils and listings ever again.

Re what’s covered by the listing:

All parts of the building are listed, inside and out, unless specifically mentioned as excluded in the list description.

Outside, the listing extends to protect all structures including garden walls, outhouses etc that were within the ownership at the date of listing AND which were in existence on or before 1 July 1948.

So, a 1970s garage wouldn’t be considered a curtilage listed structure, but a 19th century stable would be.

I think that means that we have a listed dog kennel!

Our large garage was built in the 90's (well after the property was listed) and at the end of the garden 30 metres away from our G2 listed house and we have been refused permission to turn it into a home office/summer house. If it weren't listed we wouldn't even have to apply for pp, only building control for the safety aspects.

Are you saying the council are incorrect to refuse on the grounds that the garage is within curtilage? I'd be very happy if they are!

OP, the house is really lovely. It will cost a fortune to heat I suspect. This beautiful, enormous, windows look rather draughty to me. It doesn't look uninhabitable though. I find the photos of the bathroom a bit disturbing. Is the window really in the panelling like that? A full structural survey by a specialist in historic buildings would be a must for me.

Are you saying the council are incorrect to refuse on the grounds that the garage is within curtilage? I'd be very happy if they are!
I think they are.
We had an argument with our council, and they decided something wasn't listed despite being within curtilage, when it would have been very convenient for us if it had been.

Did you use a consultant, and what does making it a summer house/ home office involve. Are you sure the reason for denial was due to the fact the garage was considered a listed building? And not due to another reason? Did you want facilities, a loo etc, or to extend, change the exterior ? What was required to turn it into a summer house/home office .

the garage is not listed, it is in the curtilage of a listed building, but it itself is not listed.

we always use a consultant and speak to planning in advance to get their direction, but I suspect there is more to this than they think it’s a listed building so said no.

Thanks both.

It would have required replacing the garage doors with french doors (to match the french doors on the main house) and an additional window on one flank wall (looking out only towards our garden). The rear of the garage already has a large window but we wanted to replace it with a double glazed window matching the french doors. The garage already has power. We weren't asking for plumbing or drainage or to enlarge the footprint or change the roof. We didn't use a planning consultant, we spoke to the Conservation Officer within the planning department and he told us it wouldn't even be considered.

Having reviewed planning applications for listed buildings in my LA over the past few years (since our abortive attempt) very few are approved and these are usually for like for like replacement, although even then it's touch and go. For example last month a neighbour applied to have their very old and rickety 1960's conservatory replaced with a beautiful bespoke oak framed conservatory, again no bigger than the tumble down extension it was replacing, and this was rejected.

I would still like to convert the garage so perhaps I'll speak to a planning consultant and take advice from them.

Apologies OP, I have derailed your thread.

It is a lovely house and 20 years ago I would have gone for it but having owned a Grade 2 listed house for 20 years I wouldn't touch it for all the reasons PP have mentioned: damp, expense, dealing with the listings officer.

I see it's SSTC - are you the buyer @NinNinJin? If so, hope all goes well 🙂