Is it a pain to own a Grade II house?

[NinNinJin]

Viewing a grade 2 house in a couple of days and it is gorgeous but def need work to be done. Is it a bankruptcy project? We are not made of money. The house is comfortably within our budget but I would not want to drown us.

It is just nothing is coming for sale and I'm becoming a bit desperate.
Tell me your stories of dealing with grade 2.

It looks gorgeous and I would totally buy it but I can be insane over old houses

Things that would bother me would be the condition of the curved windows as they would be ££££ to replace.

A lot of the rest looks just tired +/- using the wrong paint/plaster. I've had some of my plaster changed but not all has needed it.

This is its listing

https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101293641-54-castle-hill-road-hastings-castle-ward

The listing for 58 mentions asbestos so if its similar may want to get that checked on a survey.

Lovely house - but I would be worried about damp which seems to show on several walls. A survey will show up the likely cost. It also looks as if there is already an extension at the back shown in picture 33 which may not have been done in the correct way.

Another thing to bear in mind is that buildings insurance is higher for a Listed house. The question is asked when you take out insurance.

I once lived in a listed black and white cottage which I loved but I would not do it again UNLESS it has been done up to an acceptable standard by the vendor with all agreements in place.

I moved from the listed cottage to a 1930s house with picture rails and high ceilings - much easier

It does take a special kind of person to live in a very old/listed building, imho. If you're used to airtight boxes with plastic windows and other modern 'conveniences' they might not be for you.

Old can definitely equate to money pits - we've previously owned everything from Victorian to Georgian to Tudor and have sunk tens of thousands (actually more like hundreds of thousands, i dare not add up the costs!) into them over a period of twenty-odd years....and none of those were listed!

Despite their lack of listing, we've always tried to do everything sympathetically and of course that costs ££££. I'm proud to say we've never succumbed to plastic windows and we're very used to adding multiple layers to keep warm in winter.

We don't mind living on a building site or rolling up our sleeves to tackle stuff that friends in their shiny, toasty new builds have balked at....

We've become fairly skilled at doing stuff ourselves (learning to lime plaster etc) and we recently built some huge oak framed windows despite no training in carpentry. All this has undoubtedly saved us a fortune over the years as I dread to think what we'd have spent had we not had both interior design backgrounds and more practical skills.

If you have a healthy restoration budget and deep pockets or don't mind waiting for trades experienced in restoring listed buildings to become available then It shouldn't be a problem.

It's a handsome house and if you don't have really young DC - we tackled our first big project (converting four flats back into the Victorian house the building was originally intended as) when we had an eight year old, who was well past the age of being into everything 😉 - I'd probably be more inclined to consider it. Access looks a bit challenging and I'm guessing there's no parking with the property?

I grew up in a listed house. It was fine if rather difficult to do various things. It caught fire earlier this year. Now the listing is a pain as my parents need consent to make the repairs for example to the window and roof which burnt or were fire damaged. There are also all sorts of things to do with the rest of the repairs. It is 5 months later and they only just got the permission to clear the damaged parts of the building so they have been living in a damaged house for months....

Love that house!
(sorry I can’t advise about grade 2 stuff)

OP, you said you thought itd be EPC rated F (if it needed an EPC - listed properties dont).
But that means it has an expensive-to-run heating system and absolutely no insulation.
If you can install a mains-gas (or oil) condensing boiler with thermostatic valves on radiators, insulate loft space (eg sheeps wool for breathability), have A rated appliances, non-incandescent lightbulbs... then that would likely get it to a poor D (which is uk average). Windows are beautiful, if you can sort out draughts then very thick interlined curtains will help, the flat faced windows you can secondary glaze.
It does look like it has some issues with damp. Also that its been part-renovated?

The grotto in the garden would worry me. If that is covered by the listing, which is probably is then it could be a total money pit to make sure it doesn't fall down.

It would be highly unusual if the caves were listed, and someone has posted a link and they aren’t.

to me they are a selling point, lovely . I’d have a lovely table, comfy chairs, cushions and lights and candles in there.

It’s not for me. Looks like no parking and walk up a lot of steps to get to the house?
Builders will not like that. Will add to any expense if any are willing to even quote.
Will cost a fortune to heat, I’d definitely get last years bills. To add, the heating looks inadequate.
Five bedrooms/one bathroom. The list of remedial work is too extensive to go into. Just the damp alone would cost thousands.
I think there’s a lot of day dreamers on this thread.
Lovely house though.

It’s beautiful, needs work, we were much younger when we bought our house as a reno project 25 years ago, not sure I’d be up for it again! Ours isn’t listed but we are one of three character properties, our neighbours one side and us have tried to maintain character, the other next door however, have just taken off a red clay roof and tried to modernise with grey concrete marleys, it looks dreadful, so much so I wish I lived in listed area. I love a modern house, as much as a listed house and houses with character, what I don’t like is the attempted outside modernisation of older properties when they don’t get it right and they rarely do and they date really quickly.

We had a grade 2 house for 10 years and yes it was a pain. The council had to approve the listed building consent and they have us hoops to jump through and we had to spend a fortune to do anything.

Beautiful house.

It can depend on where you live - our local conservation officer has been brilliant, committed to the buildings but understanding they have to work as homes. Four miles down the road they have an officer who won't let owners take out 1980s gas fireplaces to reveal medieval inglenook behind them, on the grounds that everything is appropriate to it's 'time.'

You could ask around, but being not as old and ramshackle as a lot of G2 properties that's fairly low risk. Because why would you want to add windows for example. Those ones are perfect!

As @Persipan mentioned upthread, it is a common misconception that something not referred to specifically in the Historic England listing is not covered by the listing.

Everything within the curtilage of a listed building is covered, whether referred to or not! So imho, the grotto will be listed too.

Like a previous poster (I think, I didn't really understand their explanation), our front boundary (garden) wall is listed because it originally formed the boundary to a nearby historic mansion of which our house - along with the neighbouring converted stables - once belonged. However, unlike those two properties, our actual house itself, despite dating from the same period, is not listed, not even for 'group effect' as often happens. I believe our house was in an extreme state of dilapidation when the others were listed in the 1950s, so it was probably considered beyond saving.

As an aside, our garden is also 'listed' - on the Historic Parks and Gardens register (because it once formed part of the historic estate, rather than for any particular features it contains - the adjoining farmer's field is also on the register) - but again in our case that is an entirely separate consideration from the house itself.

Absolutely gorgeous house.

We live in a g2 listed house and it’s been fine, mainly though because we never wanted to do anything to it other than decorate and restore. The people I think are utterly mad are those that consider a g2 as a big project to extend and remodel. It can be done but it’s incredibly expensive and you will likely not get permission to do exactly what you want.

Initial thoughts on that one- subsidence? Can’t see cracks but it’s high and on a hill so I would want a top notch survey on the foundations/ risks of movement. Windows. They are absolutely gorgeous but if you need to replace them or even restore they will be horrifically expensive, especially the bows. Vehicle access- can’t see at the moment if you can get a car/ van to the house- if not this will put a lot of trades off. Damp- definitely something dodgy in one of the bathrooms so that needs looking at. Generally it looks pretty good, but my worry would be that it’s a “scratch the surface and find a disaster” place, so I’d be checking out electrics, plumbing, drains etc. Finslly ongoing expenses- houses like this always need something doing, not always expensive and you don’t always have to do it but if you want a home that’s “finished” (or your DH does) you might not want to go for this one. I can also tell you now that it is going to be bloody freezing in the winter with what look like single glazed windows, on a hill, near the sea. So expect to have to pay a lot for heating over the winter and maybe even close rooms off etc- and make sure that’s in your ongoing budget. I’d definitely try to keep the Aga too.

Budget wise, I’d say if you decorate, replace the bathroom and kitchen and do nothing else you’ll spend 50-75k depending on trades around you. If you need to do roof, electrics, boiler, roof or windows then you’ll need more. Most expensive jobs would be roof, windows and structural stuff. If subsidence us suspected I wouldn’t buy it.

It is a commonly misunderstood thing that only the features mentioned in the description of the listing are actually covered by the listing of a grade 2 building.

In reality everything inside the curtilage of the the property is listed , including the garden and garden walls and all outbuildings. Repairs to anything are fine as long as you are making like for like repairs and most decorating is ok but anything like new heating system, new roof, new windows, moving any walls, moving doorways, and theoretically new kitchen/ bathroom should have listed building consent or you can be made to put them back exactly how they were, even if it was a horrible 70s swirly mess.

I am not saying this is always enforced, but that is what the listing actually means. It can cause issues when you sell as the pictures can be used as evidence that you have made changes without listed buildings consent.

Absolutely no intent to make major changes to the house/extend. I cherish all original features and wouldn't want to do any harm to the building. No way.
We are a family with young kids. But we are lucky to have somewhere to live while we would be decorating. We wouldn't be in the position to do it ourselves I think. We have somebody we trust in mind for doing the work.

What would you recommend to check when viewing? Questions to ask? The agent said it had a lot of interest. What would you offer?

Actually it’s you who has misunderstood. Everything within the curtilage is absolutely not always listed. Think about that statement logically. That would mean your garden shed or new garage. Of course they are not listed. It’s actually very complex to understand what’s considered listed, it is dependent on when it was built, its use, etc. so I’m afraid your statement is incorrect.

It needs a lot more than decorating!
There is damp everywhere downstairs, and on the ceiling by the chimney upstairs, and on the stairs.
The estate agent won’t tell you anything that may put you off, so unless the previous owner is there, or there is an information pack, you’ll know nothing.
I think anyone not getting a level 3 survey would be mad.
Think about getting up those steps outside in the rain with the kids and shopping.
Has the outside ever had the stucco replaced? How much life is left in it? What’s the heating system and how old is it?
Are you on the hook for previous alterations? There’s an odd wooden patch in a bedroom, what was removed?
Open those windows yourself!

I honestly think this will be a 250k money pit if you try to do a half decent renovation.

A quick look on the virtual tour, downstairs only. Looks like plaster has been hacked out under a window and replaced badly. Damp? Wood below it possibly rotting. Ceiling abnormalities in one room. Downstairs shower room, wall (partition?) Looks to be bowing. That's as far as I got on the virtual tour, but if you use them properly, they can be very telling.

Agas are extortionate to run. We asked our LL to remove ours (which she had promised) when the future running cost was going to be over £120 a week (electric). Turns out they run on 13amp whereas ranges run on 35+ and they would have had to rip up two sets of flooring upstairs to do so.

I would definitely pay heed to what PP say about builders not wanting to take on a tricky to access property.

You will always be cold in that house. I would be surprised if you could get it past 19 with everything on full pelt (at great expense) because you simply cannot do modern insulation without eventually ruining it. Given its proximity to the sea and elevation, if you can achieve 19, I will be mightily impressed.

Estate agents always say it’s got lots of interest! That doesn’t always amount to proceedable offers. They might be right in the case if they house as it has masses of curb appeal but don’t let that pressure you. Definitely go and have a look around. I’d be asking questions about heating (what type of boiler) and since the house is empty I’d be looking for myself at maintenance issues, like turning on taps, flushing loos, seeing if windows will open, are they obviously rotten, do doors fit, do the lights work (ask the estate agent if you do too much if this). Where are the radiators- do thru look old? What about light switches and electrics- you can usually see a few dodgy plugs and switches if it’s all old. Are there leaks in the upper floors and do the gutters have plants growing out of them? Can you smell damp- what’s that stuff on the wall in the bathroom? Do floors move in the corners, do the doors close properly? Are the stairs rickety? The house is empty- why? What happened to the previous owner? How long were they there for? What about neighbours, how do their houses look? Is the parking and access ok?

If you decide to offer, I’d assume you need at least 50k in the bank unless you’re prepared to live in it for a while as is, but in the end offering is an art not a science and it really comes down to how much you love the place.

I’d also get very good surveys done if your offer is accepted (from RICS people with experience of old houses, then speak to them once you’ve got the report- they often give much more away about the house if you have a chat). In a way viewings are for you, to get the feel if the place and neighbours and look for obvious issues- you can ask estate agents questions but 9/10 times they don’t know the answers anyway and you certainly can’t rely on them!

We are in our second grade II listed house. After redoing the roof insulation it is really warm and cosy inside, despite being the only house on the top of a blustery hill.

I would recommend ensuring you have a surveyor who specialises in listed properties - our said he was, but clearly wasn’t. We have had some great advice since from conservation specialists (another hoop with planning - you need one on board to support your plans).

We haven’t really had any problems with planning - you have an extra hoop to jump through with having to get heritage consent but we’ve found them to be sensible, and think we are too. We’ve done quite major works on both houses and did have preplanning meetings with the heritage people so we knew how on board they were. Things like permitted development don’t apply to listed buildings so you do have to seek more permissions than usual.

Like for like replacements generally don’t need permission, nor repair. You are supposed to ask before you paint windows a different colour etc.

works inside - as long as they don’t change the fabric of the building (knocking down walls or replacing lintels etc) don’t generally need permission. Creating a new bath room would due to locations of pipework etc.

the biggest problem we have had is where previous owners haven’t respected the building in repairs they have done. Lime mortar replaced with modern materials etc. Ours should all be dug out and replaced - this is partly so the building can ‘breathe’ as it should, but we can’t afford to do it at the moment. One day we might but it’s not as big an issue as it can seem. To restore our house fully back to original materials would be prohibitively expensive. We have done some work where it has been necessary but most of the ‘advised’ work isn’t.

oh, and those ehp things should be taken with a pinch of salt - it’s to do with what you can do and what you have/haven’t rather than the actual costs of the building. My parents are in a much newer building and are rated A as they have done literally everything possible bar pull the place down and start again. The house is cold and costs a fortune to keep tepid in winter. Don’t get an air source heat pump!!

I think £50-75k for kitchen, bathroom and redecoration is vastly underestimating things.

Personally I don't think that would touch the sides - particularly as (if it were me, anyway) I imagine an appropriate kitchen will cost a considerable sum. A house like that is crying out for a lovely hand-painted kitchen. We spent £20k+ on ours from Handmade Kitchens of Christchurch/vintage larder etc and that was with me painting and us fitting it....and didn't include the solid pewter handles, sink, tap or iroko worktop.

A rough totting up of what we've spent on our 400 year old - non-listed - slightly smaller detached cottage gives me a sum of £120k, although that includes new bathroom, boiler/cast iron rads, partial rewire and a few replacement timber d/g windows plus garden landscaping. If we'd had to pay trades for everything we couldn't do ourselves, I imagine it would be closer to £200k.