It's a Buyer's Market: experiences in 2023/2024 ?

[wheretolivehelp]

Just wondering what other buyer's experiences have been like on this side of 2023? Any horror stories? Issues with sellers? Guzumping? Guzundering? Problems with EA?

There's a few threads with Seller's experiences on MN (many saying their buyer can't afford the mortgage for their (overpriced?) property and so re marketing them).

What good and bad experiences have you had as a buyer?

Hope this thread will be useful to the buyers of 2023 and 2024!

hi! I love your username!

I agree it's much better with the power of the internet and social media to help laugh at "businesses" that try to rip people off. This way, there is a community that feel supported before they make the biggest purchase of their lives, and in today's market, and probable risk of negative equity.

i personally love the threads on MN asking people what they think of x, y, z floor plans and the responses are so interesting!

Or the little “bedroom” that doesn’t have windows. That is always one to mentally redefine as a walk in wardrobe or extra storage .

Trying to get 2017 prices, when interest rates were at zero, just isn`t going to work for most sellers now.

ooooh you've given me a great idea!

To all my Buyer friends: let's all band together and offer 20%+ discounts on any house at random and force this a housing crash!!!

That would be so hilarious to see, right?? A bit like when sellers were laughing at buyers as they were happily increasing their prices by 30%+ over the last couple of years and banded together to do this nationally as they ripped people off left, right and centre.

It's not "Stupid" to demand 20% off the asking prices right now just because it doesn't suit you as a seller and your retirement plan.

It's a buyers market now. I truly believe there is a possibility we could actually force the price correction if not the crash 🤔

Whoosh......
To explain again more simply for you, what I am saying is that automatically offering any set % less for any house (or even a set % more in a rising market) without looking at the individual property and it's circumstances is stupid. Which it is.
I'm not selling anything. And personally I think current house prices (for lots of complex reasons) are far too high compared to wages. But I am trying to advise buyers how not to make themselves look stupid, and/or possibly lose a house they really want, by offering less by some arbitrary set % told to them by some random stranger on the web, when it may have already had its price set to take account of the market.

Very very few houses have had their price set to "take account of the market", that would involve sizeable price drops, and that is why we have a stalemate with property sales down over 50% and mortgage applications down by about 40%.

I’m looking for a 2-3 bed flat in Battersea/Fulham right now and prices are dropping daily.. between 8.5-13% off anything that has been on the market for more than 8-10 weeks. Every time I look a flat that was £750 yesterday is £725 today and that’s often not the first drop. And that is period housing.
New builds by the river in Battersea have dropped by 25% in some cases over a year and are still not shifting.

I think there will be some quite good deals to be had before/just after xmas

Yep, that is because people probably overpaid by 35% or more, looks like you are using PropertyLog to track these price drops?

I’ve got a chrome thingy which shows me the price drops for each property when I’m on right move

I agree that there are a lot of deluded sellers about, but this isn't anything new. For years now, people have been trying to sell very dated houses for practically the same price a renovated ones.

However, I think that there are also a lot of deluded buyers who expect to get their perfect house at the price they dictate. All I can say is that they are likely to end up paying an awful lot of rent over the coming years.

* 'these houses need to come down*'
This is the problem. Often prices don't 'need' to come down. If the price isn't right, then often the seller simply won't sell. Of course the buyer can also not buy, but the alternatives for them are usually pretty dire. Rents are rising rapidly, partly because people delaying buying has led to a chronic shortage of rental properties. Once you buy and lock into a mortgage deal, the proportion of your salary that goes on mortgage payment decreases every year as your salary increases. This doesn't happen when you rent. In fact, it's likely to increase.

Having said that, I think that the increase in interest rates will primarily impact London where property prices are high. In the north, where property prices are lower, the impact of higher rates on monthly payments is much smaller. You can already see this divergence to some extent.

In my area, anything half decent is still being snapped up very quickly. Houses in need of huge renovation are sticking around and getting reduced.

Bloody hell, this thread has gotten a bit nasty! I’m not sure where all the vitriol directed at sellers is coming from 😕

The truth is, other than FTB, many people fall into both camps - buyers and sellers.

There have always been unrealistic sellers. But equally, there have always been skinflint, demanding buyers!

It’s not “greedy” to want to maximise your profits from selling your home. It’s an investment- this is the only type of investment where people are sneered at for wanting to get as much as they can!!

Equally, it’s not “tight” to want to get a bargain price for a house. It’s a big commitment!

If you’ve struggled to get on the market, I understand the relief at falling prices. But those of you relishing in the downfall of “greedy” sellers is downright unpleasant.

Also the comments re house descriptions…..estate agents are sales people. In every single industry sales people try to big up the product! Car salesmen hype up an old banger. Hair care companies imply all sorts of miracles if only you’d buy their shampoo…. Estate agents try to present houses in a way that appeal by using descriptive phrases that may help buyers see possibilities.

That tiny space may seem pointless to you but another buyer may genuinely need an extra space for a desk. Likewise that poxy 3rd bedroom? Perfect for a cot. Or an office. Small bedrooms are annoying but you can see the dimensions on the floor plan. It doesn’t make it wrong and “not a three bedroom”.

Sales talk has always existed in every industry and property sellers aren’t some demonic demographic for doing the same. RM has excellent descriptions and photos - use your eyes!

I’ve just sold my house, we were listed and off the market as SSTC in less than a week. I priced to sell quickly. Last year I bought our onward property jointly with DM. Sealed bids, huge interest, maybe we overpaid but we got our forever home. I don’t bear the sellers any ill will for getting what they could.

We also looked at what felt like twelvety billion houses to find one with enough overall space. I thoroughly agree with PP that not enough emphasis in placed on square metres/square footage rather than the number of bedrooms. I think it would help everyone - and may also influence prices if we used that model instead of bedrooms as the primary descriptor.

I agree with what you say ( though in parts of the country square footage is already more relevant for valuations than number of rooms, such as central London). Maybe we will eventually move in that direction in other parts of the country too now that almost all listings include data on square footage. I hope so, because it makes more sense than pricing by number of rooms.

But yes, it’s a shame if the conversation around buying & selling turns nasty. Buyers shouldn’t automatically assume ALL properties are overpriced by 10% or more. Some are but not all, and hence their seeming bemusement when they keep offering low and their offers keep getting rejected. Sure it’s a Buyers market & that gives them a bit more power but ultimately, the deal still has to work for both sides or you get stalemate.

Around 10% under asking is a reasonable place to start negotiations but some properties are already priced to sell. Plus the more desirable properties can still achieve closer to the asking price if the Sellers aren’t in a hurry. It’s very dependent on factors like location, condition, proximity to excellent schools etc. FTBs may be overly influenced by the media with their click bait generalisations but it’s always better to do your own research into comparable properties selling in your local area and make judgements based on that.

First time buyers will be Sellers too in a few years. Will they want to achieve the best price they can for their property? Or will they knock 20% off the EA valuation to help out the new wave of FTBs?

I don't think it's that FTB are suddenly unwilling to compromise, but rather that buyers in years when prices were always going up were not as discerning. It used to be normal to buy a house that was a big compromise with the plan to live in it for 2-3 years, sell for a profit, and use that money to increase your deposit and climb the ladder. This went into overdrive during the pandemic when people could barely even view properties before having to make an offer.

Now there is no guarantee you will make a profit, and a very real risk of negative equity, so buyers will be looking for somewhere that they can live in for 5+ years. So the small 2-bed terrace or flat that may have been an okay compromise for a newly married couple with plans to move in a few years when they have a baby suddenly isn't desirable as they will be looking to future proof, and the price will have to drop low enough so that it is affordable to a younger couple or even a single person if it's going to sell.

As someone not originally from the UK I also find it completely bizarre how sellers roll their eyes at "naive" FTBs that are concerned over issues on the survey for older houses. If a roof on a period property has a lifespan of 125 years (and many victorian/edwardian houses will be approaching or already passed these lifespans), every subsequent owner takes on a higher risk of being the unlucky person that has to pay for this maintenance. It's not naive to expect this increased risk to be reflected in the purchase price.

It’s good for FTBs to be discerning @BraveToaster and I would expect them to be, especially, (as you say), now the housing market is slow. Just a shame if they talk themselves out of every potential deal, because no property is perfect.

I also agree FTBs should be wary of significant structural things that come up in surveys. My daughter knocked 4K off the agreed price after a survey found potential problems with the roof on her Victorian flat & other issues. Would have knocked off more if she was solely responsible for roof repairs but the potential cost would be shared between 4 flats.

Sometimes FTBs worry unnecessarily over smaller things that aren’t that significant. But hey, all Sellers were FTBs once so personally I think it’s understandable.

@Twiglets1 One thing I've noticed is that a lot of buyers (not just FTBs) don't seem to have much imagination with how they could use the space. For example, as long as you have storage space elsewhere, there is no reason you couldn't have a dedicated utility space in an understairs cupboard or even upstairs. You don't always need to spend a lot of money to extend.

A friend recently bought a 4 bed house with garage and immediately started talking about converting the garage to a second living room. This would involve substantial structural work as the stairs would need to be moved to provide access. They have one child and no plans for another so I pointed out that he has two spare rooms that could easily be used as a casual lounge/gaming room without any work. He seemed baffled and was hung up on the idea of keeping two spare bedrooms, even though all his family live down the road and he's unlikely to have overnight guests. You can still say you live in a 4 bed house even if the extra bedrooms have another purpose 😂

People are strange sometimes… our next door neighbours have also converted their garage into another living room, at great expense.

It’s a bit baffling to us as it’s a 4 bed house and they are a couple in their 40s with no intention of ever having children. Hard to imagine why they need the extra space 🤷🏼‍♀️

Hi, I used to live/rent in Wimbledon which is showing very similar drops to Balham. Houses that were 1.2mill are now in the 900k bracket (and still on the market) and I would bet they will continue to drop. One of the neighbours on our old street sold their 5 bed house at a loss.

I think people are really looking at the "value for money" factor. Not just the house. Wimbledon area seems a bit pants these days with a declining high street and Centre Court shopping mall falling apart. Houses look tired and it's just not the same as 15 years ago.

The market has changed, buyers have changed. This culture in the housing market of sellers wanting everything for nothing ends with this new generation of buyers.

Hi, thank you for sharing.
The examples you provided are spot on and negative equity is a real concern. I would say for most buyers, it's a serious concern now.

I also find it completely bizarre how sellers roll their eyes at "naive" FTBs that are concerned over issues on the survey for older houses. If a roof on a period property has a lifespan of 125 years (and many victorian/edwardian houses will be approaching or already passed these lifespans), every subsequent owner takes on a higher risk of being the unlucky person that has to pay for this maintenance. It's not naive to expect this increased risk to be reflected in the purchase price.

The roof example is an excellent one. You'll find sellers actually turn around and say if they knock off the price it's like they're paying for a "new roof" but don't get to enjoy it. It's really ridiculous. I'd even say pathetic. Personally, I believe there should be laws forcing the reductions based on professional surveys. We wouldn't accept if for any other "used" product - sofas, kettles etc - why should it be any different in the UK.

The UK is a pretty dire place not just because of the housing issues, but also because a lot of people are quite vicious and will even vote to stop new houses being built just to increase the "value" of their property. People in our country are happy to see struggling families, homelessness and people in temporary home states just to get their retirement injection.

Regarding the sq footage some people are mentioning, I really think it depends.

For example, you can get massive sq footage on the ground floor because of a huge kitchen extension that also doubles up as the family space and looks great, has all the living and dining space you could image, yet still have the upstairs pretty much untouched with two double rooms and that box bedroom again. So, a 1250 sq foot house which is pretty standard space for most families may have most of that on the ground floor.

That's what I've been seeing anyway (I can post examples for you later off RM).

So, while sq footage is important to me too, I think the floorplans and looking at what the real bedroom numbers is, I have to check the whole house basically before I can move on lol.

We're currently buying a 4 bed / 1 study (actually listed as such) new build house. We don't need 4 beds, so 'Bedroom 2' on the same floor as the living room is going to be the kids' living room. This leaves 3 bedrooms and study on the top floor, which is ideal.

I think those are really good points. The good shopping areas when I was young are all fading now - Ken high street was my local and you could get everything there, it is just overpriced cafes and outdoor shops now.

First time buyers will be Sellers too in a few years. Will they want to achieve the best price they can for their property? Or will they knock 20% off the EA valuation to help out the new wave of FTBs?

This is a good point and i wished to share the following with you. From my perspective as a Millennial and also for many of the younger generation:

Housing is not a commodity. We see a property as a home.

Why? Because we see what poor housing of today and lack of it it has done to our country.

I, like many of the younger generation, won't (or can't) rely on a property as a retirement injection. Many of us care about the state of the country and lack of housing and the future. Many of us want everyone to have a home, not just the few.

We might have similar experiences. I used to live near Notting Hill too, and would walk a bit to High St Kens quite often. Couldn't agree more regarding overpriced cafes and outdoor shops now.

I get really annoyed with all the overpriced coffee ever since I went backpacking through Italy a few years ago. A delicious cappuccino is like Euro$1 or Euro$1.50 . In some places you can get it for 90cents. And they were were in the tourist areas of Milan and Rome.

In the UK, people love to rip each other off. It's a cultural issue. There's very little togetherness and solidarity. It's a shame when you see countries like Singapore want to provide affordable housing for all their citizens and home ownership is like 80% there.

The UK can be a different place, just seems too many people don't want it to.

I hope you find a good place soon (if you haven't already)!