Extension - Is it normal to get the Builders rough quote first and then engage their preferred Architect?

[Cramlington567]

If you approach builders without drawings they seem a bit reluctant to come out and quote (guess they get a lot of time wasters). If you do get them to come and give a rough quote and you decide to go with them then you can use their preferred architect which seems to make sense since there can be less scope for blame later if they say the drawings were not quite right etc.

Conversely, getting an architect to do the drawings first seems worse. They may well do a great design but then if the builder quotes beyond your budget for that then you have to go back to architect and ask them to scale it down (which costs more fees). Then the builder might not be happy with the architects drawings and it leaves you open to being the middle man. I realise the initial quote can still vary a little bit until the final plans are drawn but surely this approach is more likely to control that.

So, is it normal to get the builder out first, tell your budget, get a quote, if it's agreeable then to say ok we will use your preferred architect and then go from there?

Not in my experience, builders are so busy they won't be interested without plans as they don't know exactly what they're quoting on. A good architect will work with your budget.

My experience is builders won’t even give a ballpark figure beyond price per square metre without building control drawings (not planning permission drawings). But I think it’s important to be clear with any architects you engage what your budget is, which won’t necessarily mean they design something within budget but it will help. As will keeping whatever you do as structurally simple as a possible.

Architects should have a decent idea of budget. Asking a builder to quite even a ballpark figure without drawings is impossible, though one could say if it's a bog standard terrace, X amount for a loft, Y amount for an extension depending on finishes. But other than that they'd need drawings, snd probably a structural engineer report.

You cannot give a quote without plans. Architect first builder second. You can cut out things with the architect if the quotes come back too high.

ok, so just choose an architect, what is the point of getting building control drawings rather not planning permission drawings assuming you will need PP drawings in the end anyway? Is it because they are easier/cheaper to provide and potentially amend? Is the full PP drawing only done once it is agreed with builder what you want built.

I have an architect in mind but the builder would be one of 3 or 4. I am assuming that any builder could work to his plans then?

Planning permission and building control are two separate processes that require different drawings.

Planning drawings come first and are less detailed than building control drawings. They’re usually created as part of the design process between architect and client, to nail down exactly what the client wants, then submitted so that the planning department can see the size/scope of the project and it’s impact on the area etc.

Building control drawings include all the specifications for materials and the structural calculations. Essentially they should cover everything that the builder will need to work out a detailed quote, which is the only realistic way you’ll be able to tell if you can afford the project.

We have had initial meetings with our planning drawings, but as a pp said, the builder can only give a rough cost per sq metre with them. Our planning request has been submitted for approval and the architect is now working on building control and structural drawings, which we will then take back to the builder to get a full/detailed quote.

I’m not in the UK but I did work there as a structural engineer a long time ago so hopefully I have this right. Get planning permission using arch drawings, prepare tender drawings/building control drawings these will have more detail on them including structure as necessary but for a domestic house there might not be much difference with planning drawings. Get prices from contractors/direct labour builders/sub contractors. Amend drawings if necessary for construction drawings.

Thanks @CaveCanem

@Cramlington567 Some architects will do a quick phone call appointment to discuss what you’re looking for for nothing. We called four and they were all happy to have an initial chat. Then if you want them to come out and view the property and/or discuss what you want in more detail, they may charge a nominal fee.

Out of that process you should get a quote for using their services for your designs. This will usually be broken down into stages, eg Design Fee - half when they issue drawings for you to comment on and half on submission to the planning department. (Bear in mind you will also need to pay a separate fee to submit them to your Local Authority). Depending on the job, you may need a structural survey, which is another cost.

Once plans are submitted the architect will work on building/structural plans and another fee will be due when these are finished, plus another fee to actually submit them to BC. There may also be additional costs such as site searches and things like build over certificates from your water/drainage supplier if applicable, which will also be due when the building control plans are submitted.

Small changes to plans are often included, but if planning or building control want significant changes, you may be charged for additional design work.

Very helpful. Thanks again.

My planning drawings and the ones sent to building control were exactly the same, the build spec,materials, Steel calcs were just sent on the separate document…….had no problems with that.

I would recommend using an architectural technician rather than an architect unless you want a highly bespoke fancy design. They will be cheaper, and in my experience are more practical in terms of cost and technical detail, and will work to budget. Architects tend to focus on the look and not the practicalities of budget and buildability and you'll end up getting a design you cant afford no matter how much you tell them (I work in construction consultancy).

@Sanch1 I agree. I work with a few great ATs and they do this type of architectural work as their bread and butter. They tend to be extremely pragmatic whereas Architects are invaluable for the creativity they bring to jobs, especially bigger jobs, but that creativity comes at a cost.

How do you go about finding an architectural technician?

I did an extension last year. Builders are too busy to quote without building control drawings. They want them already all signed off with building control ready for them. Unless it's a box standard one storey extension at the back, they won't know what steel, roof etc you are going to need without structural engineer calculations.

Maybe CIAT their professional body or the Royal institute of architects who also accredit ATs might have a list in your local area.

https://architecturaltechnology.com/find-a-practice.html

Thanks very much! I know I can Google lock architects but it feels awkward to contact a firm and say “actually can I have one of your ATs work on this please?” - but maybe that’s the done thing!

No I don’t think that is going to work @slamfightbrightlight AT in an architectural practice have often a very specific role. They are the ones who along with the Architects put the meat on the bones of Architect’s concept design drawings so that the project can be built. On small domestic projects, particularly if they work for themselves, they can take on pretty much the whole job.

Bear in mind that one of the benefits of using an architect is that they will be able to discuss with you exactly what you want the space for & come up with ideas that you may not have thought of (compared to for example someone who can produce technical drawings based on your rough sketch but will not go beyond that) so you would be wise discussing with an architect first. They should be able to work to a budget guide though clearly it won’t be exact until builders quotes are sought (& material prices are changing all the time so quotes tend to be fairly short lived). Some architects will also project manage for you so think about whether you want that or you want the builders to do that or whether you will do that (not recommended unless you have lots of knowledge and understanding of the processes involved!)

Thanks all and sorry to hijack OP’s thread. Our plan is a fairly basic single story rear extension so I think an AT would be the way to go with it as I have a pretty clear vision for what we want and don’t have a huge amount of space/budget to play with to make it worth an architect’s while.

Interesting about ATs

I contacted an architect today.

Any thoughts on this? I think it is a one man band so no chance to request an AT here.

Are the costs as you would expect?

Two Storey Side Extension and Associated Alterations.

Thank you for the opportunity to quote for the above works.
I have listed below the price of my fees and other fees that will be applicable for your proposed project.
Should you decide that you would like to employ my services then I will arrange to visit site and carry out a full measured survey (usually takes Around 2 to 2 ½ hours ) this will allow me to produce elevations and floor layouts of your existing property and of the property showing the proposed alterations. I will then send you copies of them for your comments and can revisit site to run through any questions/concerns before the plans are finalized and submitted to the local authority for Planning Permission. A deposit of £250 is payable when I come to carry out my measured survey.

Expected Fees
Prepare and Submit Planning and Building Regulation Submission ( my Fees) £1750 Total -Minus £100 If Pre Meeting paid for
My fee will then be split in three payments. A initial deposit or £250 when I carry out the measured survey, A payment of £700 on submission of the plans to the local authority Planning Department. Any emails , phone calls to the planning officer to justify or fight any requested alterations or amendments to the plan that are requested by the local authority planning department will be chargeable at £45h/r. Once submitted Planning can take 8 – 16 weeks from submission. Once planning approval has been gained then I will completed the Building Regulations part of the plan and submit to the chosen building regulations body. The remaining £700 will be payable at this stage. Usually takes 1-2 weeks once planning approval has been granted. Any amendments required to the plans by the building regulations body for Building Regulation approval will be made by me as part of my service.

Additional Fees to Mine
Local Authority planning fee - £270 - This is the Local Authority Planning Fee for submitting a householder planning application.

Structural Engineers Calculation -Beams / Steels – These will be required for all the proposed structural alterations /wall removals.
The calculations are out-sourced to a fully qualified structural engineer who I have worked with on numerous projects over the years. These fees between £450- £950 and are dependent on the final layout decisions and structural work involved in the design but once the drawings are completed up to planning then I will be able to get a job specific fee quote for the engineers fees.

Site Location Plan - Ordinance Survey Site Location Plan -
A site location plan is required to a suitable scale 1:1250 and 1:200 as part of the Planning and Building Regulation applications. You may have some original from when you bought the house but if not I can acquire a copies at a total cost of £30. Already got them.

Building Control Fee £ 700-850 Plus vat
This can either be through the local Authority or through a Private Approve Inspector But is a statutory service that must be carried out – There is nominal difference in price for their service. I can run thought this and give you the relative information which will allow you to make a decision on which option at a later date. Once drawing are completed t0 planning stage I can get an accurate quotation for you. This fee includes the statutory required site inspections of the work as it progresses.

Before any work is commenced I would strongly advise that you check your deeds or speak to you solicitor to check that there are no restricted covenants on the property. Also if the property is lease hold there may be a duty to notify or gain approval from the leaseholder of the land prior to commencing any building works.
If you have any queries whatsoever please do not hesitate to contact me to discuss.

Those fees seem reasonable to me - a lot of the costs are fixed (e.g. building control) so not in his control anyway. I would say that it’s important that you get on though & like the style of previous work he has done - obviously each project will be individual and should be client-led, but often architects will have styles they like/little touches that they use more than once. If you’re going to use an architect then definitely worth working with one you like & whose ideas generally you like as that’s the exciting creative bit you’re paying for! Good luck.

Those fees are very reasonable. Just be mindful that for that he won't want to do lots of interations. So fully discuss ideas and what you need when you meet, so once he's drawn up the proposed you might only need a few tweaks. If you get him doing a load of options and changing things all the time he'll want paying more.

That is a very well laid out fee agreement. I haven’t worked in the UK for a while but totally uselessly here that would be a steal. 😄