Side return plans

[Houseystuff876]

Hi, we are about to get plans drawn up for an extension into the side return. I live in a Victorian terrace with a living room at the front of the house then a dining room which leads onto a small kitchen. At the moment there is an old decaying conservatory in the side return. The idea is to knock it down and knock through to the kitchen and dining room. This will need two steel beams. This will give us one big open plan space in kitchen and dining room.

Where I'm stuck is I would have liked to add a downstairs toilet but can't see where it would go. The architect thought it was a bad idea building it in the kitchen space as the door will go straight into the kitchen. It's not essential but would have been nice.

The second dilemma is there is a chimney breast 2/3rds into the kitchen space. Do I keep it and make a toilet/ utility at the end or knock it down too? If it stays the doors to the garden will need to be in the middle of the rest of the kitchen so not central to the house.

I've never done anything like this and a bit unsure. What do you think? I thought architects would guide it all but it seems like he draws the plans of what I say more.

Any advice would be so helpful!

I've attached a rough plan

I would insist to the architect that you need a loo + utility in the space under the stairs. With open plan living, it is VERY useful to get the washing machine out of the kitchen and keep junk out of the way.

is there space for a slim door between the chimney and the wall as shown? If so, I might have loo-utility (U) and then chimney+door then a store room (S) then another door to your big open plan space. The store room will let you keep things like kids scooters and boots and sports kit and hoovers and junk out of the way so that your main space can then be big and clear and minimal. It also means that the loo doesn't open directly to the kitchen.

The space between the chimney and wall is too small for a door so no access that way. And under the stairs is too small for a toilet unless we take some space from the current dining area.

The current kitchen could be a toilet/ utility but I think would have to open to the kitchen unless I put a door the other side of the chimney. The kitchen/ diner would then be a narrower long shape with the toilet/ utility in the current kitchen area.

Or I just have one big space but with bags and shoes under stairs and everything else in the main space.

Can you see any other houses in your road that have done them? Look on the council site and you can look at other similar house plans near you to see what's possible.

My friend has a toilet straight off the kitchen. Was a bit odd first time I saw it but still handy to have one.

Okay so the new plan is to have one big space so all internal walls taken down. Then put windows looking out onto the garden with the sink moved to below the windows. Then a wrap- around kitchen with units in the middle of the kitchen space for a breakfast bar.

In the new side return will be the breakfast bar with french doors to garden.

Any thoughts on this plan would be so appreciated 🙏

Here is the plan:

Does the new plan have a loo or utility? Can't see it on the plans.

What is the full width of the new kitchen?

No toilet as the door would need to come off the kitchen. There is no space under the stairs.

The kitchen width is about 3m once extension built

Maximum 3.5metres

I know someone who split the dining room in two to create a downstairs toilet and utility/storage room which works really well. Then they have the kitchen in the side return and dining table in front of the doors to the garden. It's a lovely space and makes the most of the natural light available

Sorry meant to add this pic!

What are the dimensions of your ground floor? This is the floor plan of our downstairs (it's a basic Victorian tce with the side return done). Our house is 4.7m wide. I appreciate the WC being off the hallway rather than in the kitchen!

Is there a particular reason you don't want a loo door off the kitchen? There used to be a rule that you needed two doors to separate them, but that is no longer the case. As long as you have a hand wash basin in with the loo, that is all that is now required.

Our house isn't big so to loose a whole room to a utility and toilet seems such a waste. It's already not large with it used as a dining room.

I think a toilet straight off a kitchen isn't great. But too close for my liking.

I'de have one off a dining area but just can't fit it under stairs. Our dining room has a traditional Victorian built in cupboard and hearth. So if we do building work in there we will loose those features too.

It's about 1000sq ft : )

There was a house programme on channel 4 recently and it was similar to the VR one on bbc , there was only one episode and that radio one dj nick someone was hosting (random)
Anyway they did something similar to the plan above changed the room in the middle to be a utility, and loo room and the open plan kitchen diner at the back with big doors. It was a bigger house but may be worth watching to get an idea

If you put loo & utility nearly under the stairs and turn the kitchen U shape around you should be able to fit them in.

Is your architect an 'Architect' ie properly trained and registered with the ARB (architects registration board) or a architectural designer/planner/plan drawer/ architectural services/consultant etc
Because I would expect the former to be more proactive & better at coming up with ideas & solutions

• the others could be anything and often literally are just somebody with a cad package who draws up whatever you tell them, their qualifications to actually do anything can be patchy.

You tend to pay more for the former and less for the latter ones due to the costs involved in registration, insurance, training etc. Generally most people don't know there's a difference but end up asking basic questions to others because they aren't getting the service they should be. If people hire me they are not really paying me to just "draw plans" but mainly to come up with ideas they may not have had, give them lots of options & refine them and see them through the regulatory & logistical minefield that is construction. You don't tend to get that with someone who just draws plans. The plan your 'architect' has come up with is very basic & doesn't seem to fit your requirements.

We nearly bought a house that had a similar layout, smaller than your house though. The downstairs loo was the cloakroom on this floor plan. It didn’t feel weird.

The biggest question I would be asking with this new layout is -
Why if you are open plan to your dining space and space is so restricted do you have a breakfast bar? - it's doubling up on a function already catered for in the immediate space and is very wasteful of useable space when you are missing other functions that you want.

There is a step between dining room and kitchen so can't put wc between two rooms.

My requirements were to open the space up (knocking down walls and building extension in side return) and to put windows and/or doors into the garden and much more light.

I also wanted much more cupboard space.

He's a proper architect and will take us through design and planning.

He has added 3 windows above the sink, french doors to garden and two large skylights.

Then much more cupboard space and it all opened up.

The breakfast bar is an extra and not essential but would be sociable and would get the morning light as we are east facing. The dining room is a much darker space : )

The architect came up with the idea of the kitchen position, it being wrap around so to have lots of storage and breakfast bar.

And to add an additional large skylight/ glass in front for more light not just in the extension.

The WC was a nice to have but I hadn't said to him it was essential.

If you and your architect are happy, then go for it. But I still think your plan has a lot of wasted space between dining room and kitchen, and all along the right hand wall.

And that having laundry in an open plan space is a bad idea. Much better to get the noise and mess behind doors.

What would you do with the right hand walls? I'm intrigued!

The tumble drier is under the stairs so that is tucked away. I hang clothes outside on a line or use upstairs for the odd bits