Survey - now worried about extension & loft conversion paperwork

[Greenfairydust]

I had a structural survey on a 3 bed 1930s house I was hoping to buy.

The house has a loft extension and the kitchen was extended. This was done 25 years ago apparently.

The surveyor said the construction looks fine but stated that the solicitors need to make sure the regulations are followed and the right paperwork obtained at the time.

I am concerned that the seller seemed evasive in response according to what the surveyor wrote in the survey.

The surveyor noted that the seller stated they ''believed the work was done 25 years ago by the previous owners.''.. surely they should have all the paperwork to prove this? they bought the property 5 years ago and this I assume would have been queried by their solicitors at the time and the estate agents should have checked before marketing the property.

What are the implications if the paperwork is not available?

I am starting to think that this I might have to cut my losses and walk away from this. It is a shame as I like the house and it is in good condition.

My house search of 6 months has been a nightmare so far and now it seems I am back to square one.

Cut your losses - this has headache written all over it.

Seriously.

A better property awaits you.

Talk to your solicitor. It may just be a case of needing some sort of insurance policy, or asking the sellers to get retrospective paperwork. However, I doubt you can insure against the possibility of it turning out in future that the work was badly done and lack of paperwork would surely devalue the house now and make it harder to sell in the future.

Thank you both. I just alerted the solicitor to this and email the estate agent to ask for an explanation.

The property was marketed with the extension specifically highlighted as a benefit in the particulars so I would be absolutely furious if they did this knowing full well there was no paperwork in place and would immediately pull out.

Frankly I am surprised the sellers' solicitors did not query this when they initially bought the property a few years ago or that they did not take the right steps to get retrospective permission before putting this on the market as this was bound to come out.

I am so angry...

I don't really see the issue about planning. I have an extension with no permission, I just bought an indemnity insurance against future planning issues when I bought the house, cost about £50. Loft conversion could be more of an issue maybe.

If the work was done 25yrs ago there possibly isn't any paperwork for it. Especially if it didn't need planning permission and was under permitted development.

A lot of older properties will likely have work that doesn't have any paperwork.
If the structural survey is fine then I'm not sure of the issue if you like the house? Having no paperwork wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, especially if you've had a structural survey done.

Indemnity insurance can be purchased if no paperwork exists for peace of mind but probably isn't necessary in this case.

" The surveyor noted that the seller stated they ''believed the work was done 25 years ago by the previous owners.''.. surely they should have all the paperwork to prove this? they bought the property 5 years ago and this I assume would have been queried by their solicitors at the time and the estate agents should have checked before marketing the property. "

Estate agents wouldn't check this or know this. They go by what the vendor tells them.
Previous owners also wouldn't necessarily know as if there was no paperwork and survey is fine then there is no problem.

Indemnity insurance is a waste of paper

Extension wouldn’t bother me tbh and probs get an indemnity for this. Loft I would be wondering about. Tbh if the survey says it looks fine it’s probably okay.

It's not just planning permission you need to take into account, it's building regulations as well.

Did the structural survey deal with building regs at all?

25 years ago is recent in the life of the house. They should have at minimum building regulations signed off. The kitchen is less of a concern than the loft if that’s going to be used as a bedroom.

The loft is not used as a bedroom. It is used as a small storage space with velux windows.

The kitchen itself with all the appliances are on the older part of the house. The previous owners added a small room with a flat roof next to it if that makes sense to put a big table and some shelves.

The agents are contacting the vendors to ask what paperwork they have and can send to the solicitors.

In the meantime I have registered myself again with other agents.

I have had such bad luck with my house search so far.

Gazumped after a month after I had my first offer accepted on a house number 1.

Made an offer on house number 2 then the seller took 3 weeks to give a negative answer (then got back to me 2 weeks later to accept it but by then I had offered on house number 3 which now turns out to be another mess.

I am really almost tempted to give up entirely because I am really struggling with the incredible level of bullshit...

''@C4tastrophe
25 years ago is recent in the life of the house. They should have at minimum building regulations signed off. ''

Exactly. This is why I am suspicious that it was built without seeking permission and the current owners know that full well.

I suppose the other option is to take out of the price the amount that this would need to fix/rebuilt if it comes to the worse and walk away if they don't go for that. Because any buyer will raise the same issue.

What building regulations were in place at the time?

If they haven't increased the height of the ceiling in the loft and it just has velux windows and not dormer windows, it may fall under permitted development. Might not have done 25 years ago but probably does now.

Same applies with the small room added. I believe 4m x 4m is the current maximum for permitted development of one storey extensions to the house.

Your conveyancer needs to look at the floor plans with measurements and advertisement photographs and tell you if they think it falls under permitted development.

That might explain why the vendors seem so unbothered about it and are hazy about paperwork if their conveyancer held these views.

Alternatively, they may not fall under PD, and your vendors got an indemnity policy. But one of the terms of these stupid indemnity policies is that the moment you tell anyone with a vested interest in the house about it (the council, a future buyer) the policy then invalidates. If they know this, they ain't gonna tell you they have one.

@KievLoverTwo

I assume they would still need to have a certificate to show the loft/kitchen extension met building regs even if no planning application was needed.

I have decided that if they can't provide proof that the building regulations at the time were met then I will walk.

My main concern is that the builders cut corners and that this is why they did not get the works properly checked (because they knew they would not be signed off).

I am also pissed off that the sellers are not being straightforward about it.

The house was at the top of my budget so I don't expect to take on a problem property at that price...

Yeah, we found corner cutting and no building regs and walked. If you are not that emotionally invested in it, it's not really worth it.

But when I asked my conveyancer if their lies/hiding lack of proper paperwork was normal in a house purchase ('am I likely to keep coming up against this with other houses I might want to buy?') he said yes, it's very common.

So these days I ask about building regs and planning applications at viewings. Then if they have something to hide, they just won't accept my offer, in all likelihood. I just cannot be doing with the potential of future resale trouble nonsense.

Indemnity policies are a bunch of bollocks so don't let the EA talk you into 'it will be alright, they will just purchase indemnity for you.'

@KievLoverTwo

I am giving them a couple of days to produce any paperwork they might have. But after I will withdraw. Although I think if they had the paperwork they would have said so by now so I am booking viewings for the weekend.

I don't deal with dishonest & greedy people.

I was a bit concerned already about stretching my budget & that they were a bit slow at dealing with their own purchase so it might be for the best. I am hoping if I stop things now I can negotiate not paying the full fee with the solicitors as I will still use them for my next purchase.

Yes, lesson learned I will also ask for confirmation of planning permission/building regs during viewings.

I think it is very silly to lie though because it will simply come out anyway during conveyancing/survey.

All they had to do was to be upfront and apply for retrospective permission/building regs or discount their house to reflect the work and hassle that will be needed to remediate this.

I don't think the agents knew either.

Our conveyancer automatically refunded us some money. I don't think they took anything for their time, but all the searches and checks they have to pay for, that money had to stay with them. I had conversation about wanting to pay them in full and they said 'don't sorry, just leave a nice review.' They knew by then I would come back to them.

If they apply for retrospective it could be denied or slow the chain. It's a risk.

And the reason they have not been upfront is, apparently, most people just turn a blind eye to it, which was a bit of a shock to learn.

I would be blooming angry too. I was. Hence I walked.

They paid for that though. We were due to exchange in a week. Their massive web of lies cost them a buyer and wasted three months of their time.

Personally I think they believe I was far more emotionally invested in the house than I ever was and I would turn a blind eye. I didn't care a jot about the house. It was somewhere I was intending to live for two years only.

So yeah - don't assume your buyers are emotionally invested or can't afford two lots of buyers fees folks! We lost about 1.5k but we just didn't care. They even asked if their new buyers could buy our £500 survey off us to speed up their new sale - I told them to get stuffed.

@KievLoverTwo

I wasn't crazy about the house it was just convenient in term of location and looked well maintained and I was really getting fed up of having to view so many houses every week and getting nowhere.

There is no way I can turn a blind eye because this will cause problem if/when I would decide to sell and if it is the principle as well that I won't do business with people who cover things up.

It could also all prove costly in the long term so better to waste the cost of a survey than to make an expensive mistake of buying a problem house.

I understand. Everything we have looked at this year has been substandard or vastly overpriced. It's an exhausting market to be looking in.

Wishing you the best of luck, hopefully something you love will come up instead.

it is pretty normal for older extensions not to have building regulations. They weren’t even recorded in sone areas that long ago.

It’s also fair to say, if it’s been up 25 years and there are no issues, the quality of the work is likely to be at least adequate, if not good.

I don't deal with dishonest & greedy people.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to characterise the current owners as dishonest and greedy based on possibly not having paperwork for building work they didn't do. Liking a house and buying it without having the exact same attitude to the documentation as you (and potentially having received different guidance from their conveyancor) is neither greedy nor dishonest behaviour.

Totally reasonable for you to prioritise this for yourself, and seek the paperwork early to avoid frustrations such as this, but as has been noted elsewhere in the thread, it's really not that uncommon to come across things of this kind and it's not worth talking it as a personal slight. If they'd built the extension themselves and not bothered to get building regs, or repeatedly assured you that they had all the documentation only to eventually reveal they hadn't, then fair enough being annoyed with them but they doesn't seem to be the case.

There are going to be a lot of houses without the paperwork.
Building regs change over the years. They can also only be enforced 2yrs after the build. So no building regs on a 25yo extension really isn't important. No one is going to knock on the door telling anyone to take it all down.
You're not going to get retrospective planning or building regs on an extension that old on any house anywhere.

It's a bit unfair calling the current owners dishonest. If there was no paperwork then there was no paperwork. This is entirely common in older extended houses. The piece of paper probably wasn't important to them if they loved the house and if a structural survey says everything is fine then I'm not sure what those pieces of paper will change exactly? Indenting insurance can cover you for the "lack of paperwork".

Also any house you view - estate agents won't have the info about planning and building regs. That's the jobs of conveyancers.

When I bought my house there was a 30yr old 3M extension on it. There was no paperwork. Pretty common for the age my conveyancer told me. Survey was all fine, electrical check etc. no corners cut. Mortgage company happy. I loved the house so lack of paperwork didn't bother me or my mortgage company either. I didn't think the owners were "dishonest" for not having paperwork.

@Ellemeg82
25 yrs ago building regulations paperwork was a common thing - it was only 1998 not the 1960's!
I'm an architect and had to produce the work for it all the time back then.
I think you have to look at it in a few ways
Planning permission - its way past the point it would be chased up and it may fall under permitted development anyway so not really an issue
Building regs - is more concerning, is it safe?
Retrospective BRegs is hard to get and you would have to bring it up to current standards to pass - usually the issue with this is insulation which will need to be much higher than it was back then.
Loft structure - is hard to see and without the paperwork you don't know if it's been reinforced properly. The loft is likely to be inadequately insulated if done 25ys ago so probably need some work to make it usable space anyway.
Gas & electrical paperwork - non negotiable- is a must and checks can be made for safety retrospectively quite easily.
Fire - easy to make sure you have adequate fire doors and smoke alarms so wouldn't concern me too much as described
Windows - fall under insulation really as they would need to be upgraded for retrospective BRegs.

Shoddy building work is easy to spot.
If the surveyor said it looks fine then the house is fine.
The rest of what the survey said was to cover their back.
After all the extension has been standing for 25 years.
But if your weren’t into the house it’s better to walk away and find a property you like.