Survey - now worried about extension & loft conversion paperwork

[Greenfairydust]

I had a structural survey on a 3 bed 1930s house I was hoping to buy.

The house has a loft extension and the kitchen was extended. This was done 25 years ago apparently.

The surveyor said the construction looks fine but stated that the solicitors need to make sure the regulations are followed and the right paperwork obtained at the time.

I am concerned that the seller seemed evasive in response according to what the surveyor wrote in the survey.

The surveyor noted that the seller stated they ''believed the work was done 25 years ago by the previous owners.''.. surely they should have all the paperwork to prove this? they bought the property 5 years ago and this I assume would have been queried by their solicitors at the time and the estate agents should have checked before marketing the property.

What are the implications if the paperwork is not available?

I am starting to think that this I might have to cut my losses and walk away from this. It is a shame as I like the house and it is in good condition.

My house search of 6 months has been a nightmare so far and now it seems I am back to square one.

Wonkylegs has some good advice. The loft is unlikely to conform to current building regulations as these have changed over the years. A flat roof extension built 25 years ago is likely to need work at some stage soon. Even new properties only come with a 10 year guarantee.

It is not easy to check the depth of foundations but if no signs of movement in 25 years it is probably low risk.

Any indemnity policy won't help you.

Does the price reflect a house where the lost os storage space only? Based on your description.. it is unlikely to meet current fire regulations, floor support would be questionable and it is possible the ceiling height and window positions are also not up to current standards so creating a unable loft space would require a full conversion.... but I think that would be obvious from viewing.

The property was marketed with the extension specifically highlighted as a benefit in the particulars so I would be absolutely furious if they did this knowing full well there was no paperwork in place and would immediately pull out. My view as a jaded person here is do not waste energy getting furious about this sort of thing - it happens.

In future ask for the paperwork prior to arranging survey.

The agent is chasing them because they were under the impression all the paperwork was available which is why I am angry. If the sellers did misrepresent the house to the agents and then myself, then to me is an issue. I would not do that to buyers I would be honest and price the house accordingly.

Yes I should have asked to see the paperwork but insight is a wonderful thing...

My concerns are not so much about planning permission because I understand that they might not have been applicable then.

But at the same time 25 years is not that long ago and the people who did the work should have been able to provide proof that building regs were followed/certificate.

The removed part of an original load-bearing wall as part of the work to create the extension to the kitchen.

So my concerns is if all of this was done on the cheap (and they knew they would not satisfy building regs so did not apply at the time) issues might come up and the extension also might need to be redone entirely, the wall reinforced and the loft space, even if just used as storage, might also need some work.

The surveyor can only see the exterior and can't say whether the extension walls/foundations are sound.

The offer was not made factoring in redoing or knocking down the extension or having to fix the structure of the roof/walls...

Also this would affect resale, insurance and potentially mortgage if the solicitors who are now aware that there might be a problem needs to inform the lenders.

I am also waiting to hear the solicitors advice

I should have said thank you everyone for the advice. I am really lost as to what to do at the moment...

As some context, my house is like this. Extension is done to a good quality. Structural surveyor didn't comment on needing paperwork.

When we didn't get any paperwork from seller. I raised this with solicitor and they said not to worry about it. I took their advice quite quickly as they are the experts. The seller has paperwork for everything they did in the last 10 years but nothing from their sellers. The explanation given was that there was less strong requirements for building paperwork back then. Things were not recorded in the same way. So it would be ok.

I wouldn't be furious at them at all. They might well have been advised the same as me. And I would mean nothing malicious by selling my property as I bought it in good faith. I also thought as long as it is good quality, that's what I live in. I don't live in paperwork if you see what I mean

@SophieIsHereToday

Unfortunately paperwork does matter when it comes to insurance, mortgage, reselling houses.

The sellers are looking at everything they were given when they bought so it might be a genuine mistake or they were let down by the own solicitor at the time.

The fact remained that I need to look at all the implications and options.

I am buying on my own and certainly have not planned the cash to immediately do extensive work to fix all of this if it came to the worse. I planned basic redecoration and to keep money to fix the roof if needed by that was all.

It's never come up for mortgage or insurance for us. I guess resale is only a problem if the buyer thinks it is, I mean, it would affect us if our buyer had your perspective. But otherwise it hasn't.

What type of paperwork are you expecting?

Did the surveyor say there was a problem structurally? That's the only reason it will cost money to fix. Lack of paperwork doesn't cause structural issues. Also you can have paperwork in place and still have issues that cost money.

I think it helps to consider your sellers perspective before becoming furious at them. It is highly unlikely they were being properly deceptive by trying to hide lack of paperwork. They probably just don't see it at significant at you do. They were probably told it was fine upon buying the property and that was there perspective upon selling it. I say this because it's easy to become furious at well meaning people and it often doesn't help. Buying and selling a house is super stressful.

I hope it works out for you and that you get the property that is great for what you want. Good luck with it all.

@SophieIsHereToday

The paperwork I am expecting is the one that should be in place...proof of planning permission and completion certificate for the works.

This is what people need to obtain (or whatever the equivalent was called when the works were done) when they do works like extension/loft conversion.

The surveyor stated that these documents need to be provided.

So it is nothing to do with my ''perspective'', it is legal requirements.

I had an awful time being caught in the cladding scandal and it took me 3 years to finally be able to sell my flat so I am certainly not getting into another property that could have problems linked to workmanship that was not properly logged and checked and done to necessary standards.

You could approach the local council building control to find out what information they have on the house. We did this a few years ago when being given the run around. They can tell you what building regs sign off's they have on file and provide certificates.

@notquitesoyoung good idea
With some councils you can check on the planning portal - check all applications for the address and it should come up with planning and may depending on the council also have the BRegs
Unfortunately not all councils have uploaded this information or make it available and the further back you go the more likely that they haven't uploaded all records.
That said you can usually request the info through the BRegs department but they may charge you.

In this case I think that the vendor should be paying for any search's if they are needed

@wonkylegs

Yes. I believe that's what they are doing at the moment: looking at what paperwork they have already from their own purchase and trying to locate them with the relevant authorities if needed. They probably will have their solicitor do this.

I would be really sad to walk away but unfortunately no paper for the extension/loft would mean I will have to do that.

The thing that puzzles me is that this should have all come out 5 years ago when they bought the property so I am a bit concerned as well that they need to faff around to find this basic paperwork. Any good solicitor would have done that then and they should have anything (or the fact that no building regs/planning permission was obtained at construction) at hand already, hence why I am worried/annoyed.

This is often the case with older properties - there wasn’t previously the level of regulation that is required now. People didn’t used to keep all the paperwork - because there often wasn’t much, and no reason to keep it. You just get the vendors to take out an indemnity policy and all sorted.

Don’t go for character houses if you want all modern boxes ticked.

You just get the vendors to take out an indemnity policy and all sorted

What would you be indemnifying against?

@Mildura the lack of documentation supporting the build. People can’t produce what doesn’t exist. Have a decent survey done it it, if it’s sound they just get the policy. We’ve literally had this on every older property we’ve owned.

@Swansandcustard

The only thing an indemnity policy is going to cover you for is the legal costs should the council take enforcement action due to lack of building regs. The council only have a 12 month period following the completion of the work in which to take any action. (unless the work is deemed to be dangerous in which case they can apply for a court order to pursue enforcement)

In this instance, after 25 years, the chances of the council taking any action are precisely zero.

And most indemnity policies cannot be taken out within a short period (maybe 2 years.. can't remember exactly but from recollection, a time longer than the period within which councils can enforce) of work being carried out.

So all in all, indemnity policies are a box ticking exercise for mortgage purposes that are unlikely to protect buyers.

I dont get the issue. If the work was done 25 years ago and the survey doesnt show any issues?

You're right to be wary. We've bought a house from some people who were rather chaotic. They'd done some extending and v limited paperwork available. Luckily our survey highlighted a potential problem with an unsupported wall so we were aware and were budgeting for a full renovation anyway. We went ahead as couldn't beat location of house.

What became apparent when the builders started was that an even earlier owner had done a bodge job with a wall removal. Previous owner hadn't been aware of this and had added a loft conversion on top. The whole thing could have come down at any point. It hadn't, he got away with it, but I wouldn't want my family living somewhere with that risk.

It's now structurally safe and compliant with building regs but it has been a lot of work and expense. Worth it for getting the house but do be wary what you might be getting into.

I suppose the reality is there is only so much that a surveyor can inspect during a general buildings survey.

They're not going to be able to verify that supports are adequately strong, what amount of insulation has been put in, whether the floor of a new loft conversion has been adequately strengthened.

The chances are after 25 years anything really bad is now likely to be obvious, but it depends on how risk-averse you are I guess.

This is bloody bonkers!

Many many many houses have old extensions which were done before regs. I just brought one myself with a loft done in 1978. I had a structural survey and it didn’t concern me or the solicitor a bit. Especially if it’s not a bedroom.

The planning permission point is likely to be a non-issue unless the building is listed. Councils cannot take enforcement action for failure to obtain planning permission after a development has been in place for 4 years.

Councils will only take enforcement action if it is expedient to do so. While the planning permission / building regs sign off is evidence of the date of completion (so the point from which the 4 year rule starts ticking) a statutory declaration from the sellers that the extension was in place when they purchased the property in [ ] is likely to be enough.

There is also a question about whether planning permission is needed - the extension may well be permitted development.

I think there are a lot of optimistic responses on this thread...

Something that was build 25 years (hardly the dark ages...) would legally need to have had building regs checks done at the time to make sure the work carried by the builders was up to scratch. Full stop.

Planning permission is one thing. Some works might have been exempt from planning permission at the time but the quality of the workmanship itself would still have needed to be confirmed through building regs sign off, especially as a load bearing wall was partly removed.

Building regs and planning permissions are two separate issues.

Indemnity insurance will not provide you with cover to pay for works that might be needed to correct this. It only gives financial protection for the legal costs should the local authority take action against you to put the property back as it was.

Not having the right permission will mean your overall home insurance will not pay out if the extension collapses tomorrow or if its electrics cause a fire and burn the property and cause damages to the house next door.

I am asking myself why would the builders/previous owners not seek building regs certification in the late 1990s? the obvious answer is that they cut corners.

So yes it is an issue.

@Swansandcustard
"Don’t go for character houses if you want all modern boxes ticked.''

The issue is not with the original house, it is with the jobs that were done/added to it in the late 90s...So nothing to do with character.

''@RidingMyBike · Today 11:25
You're right to be wary. We've bought a house from some people who were rather chaotic. They'd done some extending and v limited paperwork available. Luckily our survey highlighted a potential problem with an unsupported wall so we were aware and were budgeting for a full renovation anyway. We went ahead as couldn't beat location of house.

What became apparent when the builders started was that an even earlier owner had done a bodge job with a wall removal. Previous owner hadn't been aware of this and had added a loft conversion on top. The whole thing could have come down at any point. It hadn't, he got away with it, but I wouldn't want my family living somewhere with that risk.

It's now structurally safe and compliant with building regs but it has been a lot of work and expense. Worth it for getting the house but do be wary what you might be getting into.''

This. Absolutely this.

I don't have the budget to do a full refurb/rebuild of the extension/loft/propping the wall that was partly removed.

So my options are:

• the owner can produce the building regs certificate to show the work was up to scratch when in was done and all is well. Planning is less of an issue at this stage as indeed the council won't pursue this after 4 years.

or if no building regs paperwork is in place:

• The owner accepts that because he does not have proof that the house is structurally sound they will have to pay for a structural engineer to review it and take off the asking price the cost of redoing the botched jobs if needed. Which they probably are unlikely to go for.

The house was priced as being in good order and having a fully compliant extension in place, not as a house that would potentially need a full kitchen/extension & loft rebuilt and reinforcement of walls...

It is worth establishing whether the council have any records on file with building control from when the work was done in the late 90's, and perhaps it's just the final inspection and certificate issue that never happened. (Surprisingly common)

Or, no inspections took place at all and the whole thing was done without building control involvement, which does make the alarm bells ring a little louder.