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Are MN homeowners as deluded as HPCers?

245 replies

Cybercynic · 28/12/2022 08:03

Last few days there has been spike in the number of posts on potential house price declines. In the UK prices have already dipped more than 3% since August. I find it amusing that many HPCers are frequenting MN to report such news and potentially express glee on those that have bought.

However, even more amusing is the response of home owners suggesting how prickly they are to the remote possibility of house price declines. (PS: I am a homeowner and bought 20 years ago. While I have made equity gains over the years, I support overall declines in prices otherwise I feel my kids will be forever renting in this country).

While I hold no brief for doomsayers and think most of those are crazies, I believe the homeowners on this forum are turning increasingly prickly at facts and they offer the following standard responses to prospect of price reductions:

Response#1: House is not an investment it is a home. OR if you buy for long term you will always be okay

Counter: Ok then stop worrying about what doomsayers say. Let the prices decline by 10-25% and be okay with it.

Response#2: UK prices will never go down because it is an island and we just 'love' immigration

Counter: Please check out what is happening in Australia and New Zealand. Both factors apply there and they already have >10% yearly declines so far and more is expected

Response#3: If prices decline I will simply refuse to sell. Nobody can force me to sell.

Counter: Yes, you don’t need to sell because you can refuse to participate in the market. However, that does not stop price decline just as prices went up even when you refused to sell your own property in a rising market. House prices are determined at margins. Valuations are based on comparable transactions (whether you sell or nor). Unless there is a sellers strike announced similar to the train strike next week, not sure how this argument stands.

Response#4: There wont be any re-possessions

Counter: Agreed there will be few repossessions. It takes a long time to repossess and therefore, Banks will work with borrowers to find ways to make sure homes are not taken away. But one does not need forced sales to price declines. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Sweden have all seen declines in the last 1 year without repossessions. And as I said earlier, UK has had declines >3% since Aug. And we are not even in recession yet officially. House prices are a function of affordability and I for one do think that era of <1% interest rate is over and average will hover around 4-5% for some time and with those rates you cannot have rapid growth.

Response#5: If one hopes for price reductions throughout, one must be a horrible person 'cause some people will feel pain

Counter: HPI has caused more pain to generations. And therefore, please explain a situation when we can have affordable housing without price declines. Affordability either comes with consistent wage growth and that aint happening without rampant inflation and resulting interest rate increases. So please let us know what advise they have for the younger generation to become home owners and who want affordable housing. And please do not suggest council housing since you will need to first check the govt finances to make that suggestion

OP posts:
Notonyournellykelly · 28/12/2022 12:08

Oh give over @bibbif. You can't seem to counter any of my posts without implying I am either mentall ill (batshit) or stupid (I don't understand what you aren't comprehending). What a nasty way you seem to have about you on this thread. Gross 🤢

Anyway, the op is a particularly obnoxious poster with a vested interest in this topic, so I imagine this thread is part of his agenda.

bibbif · 28/12/2022 12:11

I've not searched their posts so that could be true but at face value Im not offended by the OP. What are you so angry?

bibbif · 28/12/2022 12:13

And there is nothing to counter but like I said I'm not interested in arguing with you.

freyamay74 · 28/12/2022 12:14

@Soothsayer1
@Cybercynic
@DeadHouseBounce
(Or whatever you're posting as today) ...

thanks for your mind blowing insights into economics. I hope all home owners will now realise they've been totally duped, and there'll be a desperate rush to experience the unrivalled joys of the private rental market.

Oh hang on...

Dragonskin · 28/12/2022 12:15

The thing that I find odd is that those rubbing their hands with glee at the idea of prices dropping, seem to think that it will finally be a dream of first time buyers snapping up properties left right and centre

The reality is that prices would have to drop significantly, which would mean that banks tighten up lending criteria, hitting FTBs hardest as level of cash deposits needed go up and affordability criteria start to tighten, so many can't qualify for a mortgage

This happened to me after the last crash, we were looking to buy in 2008, but even though properties became more affordable we suddenly needed 25% deposit instead of 5% which priced us out for much longer.

Notonyournellykelly · 28/12/2022 12:20

bibbif · 28/12/2022 12:13

And there is nothing to counter but like I said I'm not interested in arguing with you.

Thank god for that 👋🙄

As for why am I so angry...? Maybe because I wrote a perfectly normal post, not addressing you at all and you decided to pick it up and insult me. From someone who "doesn't want to argue" that is interesting.

I also dislike the op's tactics as they are goady. I've been here long enough to spot these sorts of posters and they are borderline trolls

TiredandLate · 28/12/2022 12:20

I'm more concerned with my mortgage payment increasing by hundreds of pounds a month when my fix ends. My gas and electric was nearly £500 for the last 30 days, add another £500 on the mortgage and I need to magic up almost another full time wage just for the increase on those two bills alone. Many people simply will not be able to do this by next winter as fixed terms end.

FrownedUpon · 28/12/2022 12:21

Why are you so obsessed with this topic? Your OP is plain weird. Maybe get a hobby or something.

Londongent · 28/12/2022 12:21

Dragonskin · 28/12/2022 12:15

The thing that I find odd is that those rubbing their hands with glee at the idea of prices dropping, seem to think that it will finally be a dream of first time buyers snapping up properties left right and centre

The reality is that prices would have to drop significantly, which would mean that banks tighten up lending criteria, hitting FTBs hardest as level of cash deposits needed go up and affordability criteria start to tighten, so many can't qualify for a mortgage

This happened to me after the last crash, we were looking to buy in 2008, but even though properties became more affordable we suddenly needed 25% deposit instead of 5% which priced us out for much longer.

This is so true. Whether house prices drop is fairly immaterial for those requiring a mortgage. If you need a mortgage, the question is our house prices going to be affordable on a monthly basis, i.e. cost of your mortgage payments.
Unless you have a sizeable deposit the answer is probably not.

bibbif · 28/12/2022 12:22

@Dragonskin I think it depends on the individual circumstances. A falling market benefited a relative in 08/09 as they had a hefty deposit. I'm in London & when I was a FTB I put down a 20% deposit, same as friends. Even with good incomes the tightening of lending criteria means you need a big deposit to afford prices.

Angeldelight81 · 28/12/2022 12:22

Perth median house price is up $230,000 since 2018. I think it’s very misleading to trying to imply that there is a world wide or even Australia wide dip. There isnt. I have not looked, but I would imagine the east coast is probably fairing even better.

Angeldelight81 · 28/12/2022 12:24

TiredandLate · 28/12/2022 12:20

I'm more concerned with my mortgage payment increasing by hundreds of pounds a month when my fix ends. My gas and electric was nearly £500 for the last 30 days, add another £500 on the mortgage and I need to magic up almost another full time wage just for the increase on those two bills alone. Many people simply will not be able to do this by next winter as fixed terms end.

If this is going to pan out the same way as the 70s did, you will get a massive pay rise that will help you to service the debt and make the actual capital look quite insignificant within five years. Try not to worry it’s gonna come good in the end.

bibbif · 28/12/2022 12:25

I'm more concerned with my mortgage payment increasing by hundreds of pounds a month when my fix ends

I moved last year & my mortgage today would cost about £700 a month more. We are fortunate we could afford it but I would struggle to get my head around paying that much more in just debt.

Dragonskin · 28/12/2022 12:26

That's the problem, 5% of 350k is a much easier deposit to save than 25% of 250k. And by the time we'd saved the extra 45k for our deposit house prices had started going back up again anyway. The only FTBs that would really benefit are those with a big deposit already (or very nearly there)

Of course it will depend very much where in the country you live, but in some areas unless they fall 50% plus, houses are still not going to be 'affordable' in that a couple on minimum wage can afford to buy, they will just be affordable relative to prices now

bibbif · 28/12/2022 12:30

I do feel for FTBs, it's shit all round for most of them.

justasking111 · 28/12/2022 12:35

royalwatcherblog.com/2019/05/07/queen-victorias-wheat-ear-brooches/

Queen Victoria had three pairs of ear of wheat brooches. Sarah Chatto wears one as did her mother. The queen wore them as did Eugenie at her wedding. They are quite lovely and seriously underused

Cybercynic · 28/12/2022 12:35

freyamay74 · 28/12/2022 12:14

@Soothsayer1
@Cybercynic
@DeadHouseBounce
(Or whatever you're posting as today) ...

thanks for your mind blowing insights into economics. I hope all home owners will now realise they've been totally duped, and there'll be a desperate rush to experience the unrivalled joys of the private rental market.

Oh hang on...

Ah one more value adding post. You seem to keep better-ing your own record of pointless sarcasm lol.

OP posts:
RollerCoaster2020 · 28/12/2022 12:37

It's not just FTB that are having problems. Post divorce, both parties needing / wanting to buy on one salary is also an issue for people up to their 60's :(

Angeldelight81 · 28/12/2022 12:40

RollerCoaster2020 · 28/12/2022 12:37

It's not just FTB that are having problems. Post divorce, both parties needing / wanting to buy on one salary is also an issue for people up to their 60's :(

I didn’t find it a problem at all, because post divorce, I was on a 45-year-old salary, you’re not gonna be on minimum wage at that point are you unless something is gone seriously wrong.

So, with a grown-up adults salary +50% of the proceeds of the house you’re fine.

justasking111 · 28/12/2022 12:44

justasking111 · 28/12/2022 12:35

royalwatcherblog.com/2019/05/07/queen-victorias-wheat-ear-brooches/

Queen Victoria had three pairs of ear of wheat brooches. Sarah Chatto wears one as did her mother. The queen wore them as did Eugenie at her wedding. They are quite lovely and seriously underused

Sorry wrong thread

TiredandLate · 28/12/2022 12:45

Angeldelight81 · 28/12/2022 12:24

If this is going to pan out the same way as the 70s did, you will get a massive pay rise that will help you to service the debt and make the actual capital look quite insignificant within five years. Try not to worry it’s gonna come good in the end.

I work for a smallish business, it can't and won't happen, I see the monthly figures. I can leave and work elsewhere, but there are over 100 staff in the same position as me, and thousands of other small employers in the same position, not all employees can leave and be absorbed by larger businesses. Where did small employers get the money to bankroll this in the 70's?!

Cybercynic · 28/12/2022 12:47

BellatrixLestrangesHeatedCurlers · 28/12/2022 12:05

Your post history shows you're obsessed with house related shit....

Are we not obsessed with something or the other. And this is a property forum ...right?

It amazes me to see how much of an echo chamber this forum is. Any contrarian view is responded to with ad hominem attacks. And these same folks say HPCers are crazy. Numerous posters have said how vile HPCers can be if you share a contrarian view. Guess this place is not very different.

OP posts:
bibbif · 28/12/2022 12:49

If this is going to pan out the same way as the 70s did, you will get a massive pay rise that will help you to service the debt and make the actual capital look quite insignificant within five years.

I can't see that happen since wages have stagnated for the last 15 years & unions have less power & we now have an aging population

Angeldelight81 · 28/12/2022 12:51

bibbif · 28/12/2022 12:49

If this is going to pan out the same way as the 70s did, you will get a massive pay rise that will help you to service the debt and make the actual capital look quite insignificant within five years.

I can't see that happen since wages have stagnated for the last 15 years & unions have less power & we now have an aging population

They said exactly the same in the 70s.

The ageing population is a good thing for the younger generation because the ageing generation will not want to work, and therefore they will have to pay the smaller younger fitter generation to do the work. As there’s less of them, they will be able to command a premium.
Over the last two years, there has been exponential wage growth

Soothsayer1 · 28/12/2022 12:51

Surely unions have more power at a time when we have a labour shortage?