Next door have removed their chimney breasts

[Fairyflaps]

We live in a Victorian terraced house. The fire places and chimney breasts are on the party wall as they are for all the houses in this block. A couple years ago, the landlord next door removed one stack of chimney breasts on the wall adjoining our house. We didn't realise at the time what the work was that he was having done.

Recently new tenants have moved in next door, and they are louder than previous tenants - not in a bad way, just quite booming voices, and they like singing and karaoke - and I have noticed there seems a lot more noise travelling from the party wall between our living rooms than there used to be. If I'm sat on the side of the room near the party wall, I can hear their conversation without trying to. And I would imagine it would be the same for them.

Nextdoor landlord came around at the weekend to tell us he would be doing some work on the property when the current tenants moved out, and it was likely to be disruptive. In the course of the conversation it came out that he would be removing one chimney stack/ set of chimney breasts, having removed the other stack a few years ago - the one between our living room.

I had thought that chimney breast removal required party wall agreement and building control approval. Nextdoor landlord says no, and he's never had to have it in any of his other properties. Is he trying to pull a fast one? And where can I get advice about this from?

I would rather not get into a neighbour dispute. But I had thought chimney breasts are quite an important structural part of the building, and as we are discovering, they had provided a certain amount of sound insulation.

Full disclosure, if we had the spare cash and could face the disruption, I would happily remove the chimney breasts in our house, as in a small house it would improve the space available, and as we live in a smoke free zone, we can't use the fire places.

Yes should have Party Wall notice and agreement. Make sure you have a PW surveyor at adjoining owners cost in case of damage to your property. Look on gov.uk for explanatory booklet which mentions chimney breast removal. Also make sure the remaining stack is properly supported on steel beams.

Your right I think pwa is required.

Yes of course he needs a party wall agreement, as well as to notify building control what he is doing so they can make sure any remaining chimney in the loft is supported correctly. I would speak to Building Control at your local council for urgent advice.

Thank you, that's helpful. So he was trying to pull the wool over my eyes.
Building control at the council went straight to voicemail so I've sent them an email.

Interestingly when we did an extension years ago, we discussed the plans with ND landlord in advance and discussed the party wall and he seemed to be fine with it. Then once the plans had been drawn, he got all difficult to the extent that we had to re-do the plans so they didn't involve the party wall on his side. We did the whole party wall process with the neighbours on the other side and that was no problem. People like him give landlords a bad name.

I will ask him to go through the party wall act for the chimney breasts he is planning to take out, but from what I can read, it doesn't look I have any redress for the ones he took out a few years ago. I wonder if there is any way I can get him to add an extra layer of sound insulation to that wall.

Building Control were very quick at getting back to me. As well as needing building regs, it also needs a structural engineer report and drawings.

I'm glad the authorities have come back quickly. Your ndn needs to ensure structural integrity before anything else. He needs an structural engineer's approval.

With luck he will be forced to rebuild or similar.

Out of curiosity did he remove the portion sticking out of the roof? If he didn't, and its not being properly supported underneath, then don't procrastinate. You don't want to wake up with the chimney in bed with you.

I can't get far enough back from the house to be sure, but I can't see any chimney pots, so hopefully he has. I may have to ask another neighbour if I can have a look from their garden.

Building control seem pretty on it, fortunately.

Nextdoor Landlord owns quite a few houses, and he told me he'd never had to get building control approval at any of his other properties for chimney breast removals, so that was obviously not true. As most of them are licensed HMOs, the council will have the details.

Just because he's never bothered to get it before doesn't mean he wasn't supposed to. I imagine he's done this many times and is too arrogant to think the rules apply to him.

Most back to back chimney breasts share flues upstairs or in the loft(irrespective of chimney pots),if you did decide to use the fire and part of a flu is breached and the gap covered in plaster board you also have a problem now and when you come to sell.

He is also liable for your costs if you want a party wall survey done. You choose the individual and he has to pay the bill.
Found that one out the hard way with a really toxic neighbour who fancied himself as a property developer and appointed a west end firm for a loft conversion in a London terrace 🤦🏼‍♀️

It's not a shared chimney breast fortunately - not that he bothered to check!
Our chimney breast is on the opposite side of the house.

Thank goodness for that.
So not even your chimney breast sharing the weight of probably unsupported brickwork!

You also need to alert building control about the ones he has already done too. Very dangerous if this isn't done properly.

A smoke free zone does not mean you can’t use your chimneys, it means you need to use smokeless coal or seasoned wood,, that’s all. If you’re worried about energy costs and your chimneys are viable you can absolutely use them,

The basic point is right: being in a smokeless zone doesn't mean chimneys have no use.

Getting off topic for a moment though, are you sure about the seasoned wood? I thought the fuels you could burn in smokeless areas were smokeless coal (anthracite, semi-anthracite, low volatile steam coal) and various branded approved fuels - basically charcoal, briquettes and manufactured firelogs from suppliers who've submitted them for approval. You can also burn non-approved fuels (which I think would include seasoned logs) in an "exempt appliance" - i.e. certain approved woodburners can be used to burn logs in smokeless zones.

@Fairyflaps I think I’m correct in saying removing a chimney needs planning permission also….

As in the stack on the roof not the breast.

I removed both of my chimney breasts up to the stack. Didn't need party wall agreement but needed an architect/surveyor to draw me some plans with calcs. Paid building control fee. Builder dealt with building control who inspected afterwards to make sure the work had been done as per structural surveyor plan

Well I guess it’s true if he just didn’t bother with telling the council. 😁

I don’t think the party wall survey would deal with the sound proofing issue. Just potential for structural damage to your property.

Our next door neighbour took their chimney breast out by smacking it hard many times with a lump hammer.
First I knew about it was when the pictures started bouncing off our wall.
Rang building control who came round but damage had been done and builders had done a flit. The house owner refused to tell council who the builder was.
We had to have our house repaired and redecorated on the insurance.
The insurance company took the neighbour to court to recoup their costs but the judge said the dispute was between the insurance company and the builder who was unknown, so insurance company had to bear the cost.

We moved house after that, having been there happily for 15 years.

You might be right, seeing as we're in a conservation area. But I would be less bothered about that as the chimney pots aren't a significant architectural feature or even particularly visible.

Were yours on a party wall?