Next door have removed their chimney breasts

[Fairyflaps]

We live in a Victorian terraced house. The fire places and chimney breasts are on the party wall as they are for all the houses in this block. A couple years ago, the landlord next door removed one stack of chimney breasts on the wall adjoining our house. We didn't realise at the time what the work was that he was having done.

Recently new tenants have moved in next door, and they are louder than previous tenants - not in a bad way, just quite booming voices, and they like singing and karaoke - and I have noticed there seems a lot more noise travelling from the party wall between our living rooms than there used to be. If I'm sat on the side of the room near the party wall, I can hear their conversation without trying to. And I would imagine it would be the same for them.

Nextdoor landlord came around at the weekend to tell us he would be doing some work on the property when the current tenants moved out, and it was likely to be disruptive. In the course of the conversation it came out that he would be removing one chimney stack/ set of chimney breasts, having removed the other stack a few years ago - the one between our living room.

I had thought that chimney breast removal required party wall agreement and building control approval. Nextdoor landlord says no, and he's never had to have it in any of his other properties. Is he trying to pull a fast one? And where can I get advice about this from?

I would rather not get into a neighbour dispute. But I had thought chimney breasts are quite an important structural part of the building, and as we are discovering, they had provided a certain amount of sound insulation.

Full disclosure, if we had the spare cash and could face the disruption, I would happily remove the chimney breasts in our house, as in a small house it would improve the space available, and as we live in a smoke free zone, we can't use the fire places.

That's a shame, but I will ask. I don't think his tenants want to hear us through the walls anymore than we want to hear them.
Also if he's knocking down walls and replastering, redoing skirting and cornices anyway, it shouldn't be a massive ask.

@Fairyflaps I was more thinking about the council being more interested and adding sanctions 😉

@NiceTwin that's awful.
Luckily there's no visible sign of any structural damage here. And hopefully he did engage a structural engineer. That's something that Building Control will be able to check.

I am about to do this exact work, removing a chimney breast in just my kitchen, leaving it in the room above.
I have had a structural engineer round, to work out the load bearings and positions for steels.
I have discussed with my neighbours as it's a party wall, if they would like me to instruct a party wall surveyor, which they don't. If they said yes, I would legally have to do it, according to my structural engineer.
I then have to do a building notice for my local council.
Good to hear your local building control office are on it, as the landlord next door is definitely trying to pull a fast one!

If The chimney breast has been removed both upstairs and downstairs but the stack remains then the LA building control will also be interested to make sure that appropriate gallows brackets have been added to ensure the stability of the remaining stack left in situ.

I don't think Gallows Brackets are allowed anymore!

Just as an additional note, Building Control can make him do additional work to the chimney that he previously removed if they consider it not safe structurally. Please do let them know to check that one too.

i think someone has mentioned that already, sorry!

To be honest years ago we did this before I knew better. Our builder was doing some other stuff, I mentioned I’d like the chimney breast on the party wall removing. Builder took one look and said it wasn’t load bearing and it was gone by lunchtime. We never told the neighbours or the council. I am moderately surprised it wasn’t loadbearing but the builder is good and I’ve known him for ages and trust him. But there is a chimney breast in the room above……and a chimney above the roof. 🤷‍♀️ Anyway it was over twenty years ago and is still standing.

@DohaDragon oh, he was definitely trying to imply it hadn't been necessary!

@Netaporter if I want to make his life difficult, I will just ask building control to look into his other rental properties, seeing as he's told me he's never bothered with building regs in the past. He owns a few in this area, all similar type Victorian terrace houses. And like @maskersanonymous says, this would probably be the responsible thing to do.

@pudseypie this is what I did when I had an extension done on my house and what I would do if I would remove my own chimney breasts. I'd want to make sure everything was done properly, not just for the structural reasons and as a good neighbour, but because it will make things easier when I come to sell our house. There seems to be an arrogance from some of the landlords in our area, including nextdoor landlord. The houses here make them a lot of money as student rentals, but they treat the area and the people who live here with contempt, just because it's not the sort of area they'd choose to live in. For example parking their car in the middle of the road (because they're not used to parallel parking in a narrow street), doing work at anti-social hours, and not bothering to communicate with neighbours. This was the first time that next door had come round to tell me about work he had planned - just to tell me that it would be noisy. It only came out in the conversation about the chimney breasts. Now I've got the council involved, it may well be the last time he has the courtesy to tell me anything

He isn't the worst though. A landlord across the road got workmen in to carry out a basement conversion while tenants were still living there. They even parked a portaloo outside one of the tenant's bedroom windows. I went and spoke to the tenants who were students, so quite young. They said that he'd given them notice so it was ok. I explained their rights to quiet enjoyment and in a couple of days the builders and the portaloo were gone. What was really bad about that situation was that it was during lockdown so all the university buildings including the library were closed, and you weren't even allowed to visit other people's houses.

I'd tell Building Control about the previous chimney breast removal. Assuming it was within the last ten years they will be interested and it will be worthwhile to put your mind at rest that everything is structurally sound.

Experienced builders will know how to do things properly, but they should also be reputable, i.e. they should have handled the building regs issues at the time.

Definitely get Building Control involved. We had to have a PWA when we removed the rear chimney breast upstairs. When I first had the house we also had to put in supports downstairs because a previous owner (sounds like your LL ND) had removed both the chimney breast and wall between the downstairs rooms without putting in an RSJ. Had a PWA for that. It cost me to do this and that will be part of why he doesn’t want to do it, extra cost to him. But doing things his way, you can’t be sure he’s put the right support in. Your house could be holding his up.

If you speak to the building regs officer/inspector, make sure to mention that LL has stated he's done it in multiple properties without seeking approval too. They might decide to investigate. I'm not anti private landlord per se, just multiple HMO owning, rule skirting, greedy bastards squeezing as many people into a property as possible and charging top whack whilst giving no shits about neighbours.

Have you asked your neighbours to have a look inside?

You might have issues when you come to sell as a surveyor will want to check how the chimney breast above has been supported. It may be fine but that depends if it was done correctly. If you needed building regs certificates at the date of the work being done, you'd need to provide those to any future buyer.

He should have one. But next door to us several years ago just stripped the entire house.

Whilst he is at it would he install sound proofing (you can but ask!)?

We had exactly the same problem. We had the party wall insulated on our side.

They installed 50mm of sheet insulation [celotex i believe it's called] and plaster boarded over that then painted. So we lost about 66mm off of the room length but it hardly notices. It's been dead quiet ever since, the room is warmer too. I didn't cost us that much, as the wall isn't that big.

We did this last year. Removed all chimney breast up into thr loft where the chimney stack is being supported by gallows brackets (so haven't removed the actual chimney).

We had to get a party wall agreement, and then instruct building control who came twice, once before to check the plan, check the right brackets were being used etc, and then once the work was complete to sign it off.

So yes, they absolutely should have done a party wall agreement if a party wall is involved and building control should have been involved.

@user1471505356 I've not asked the neighbours. The LL told me himself what he had done (before they moved in) and what he plans to do (which will be after the end of their tenancy) so I don't need to see inside, and there's no need for them to be dragged into it - unless LL is required to do urgent remedial work.

@Sugerfree that is what ideally I would like LL to do on his side - after all he's gaining an extra 6 sq.m of floorspace, and he'll be replastering etc anyway.

Just deciding at the moment whether to let him know that I've spoken to building control, or to wait until they contact him. The planned work won't be taking place until the current tenants move out in July, so plenty of time for me to ask him for a party wall agreement before then.

Yes it does, I wanted to remove mine while doing a refurb and the architect said we’d be very unlikely to get planning permission to remove our chimney cos all our neighbours have them. And we’re not even in a conservation area.

Planning permission requirement is a possibility in a conservation area but not a certainty it depends on what article 4 rights have been removed. Some areas you can't do anything to the exterior without permission, others it's only certain things that are restricted.

Building regulations is a definite requirement and they will require a structural engineers input for this particular issue. There is no exceptions to this so the landlord is talking bollocks and is likely to get into quite a bit of hot water & retrospective costs if he's done this especially if more than once. Unfortunately for him ignorance is not a fair defence.

Party wall agreement is needed by law however it's a civil disagreement if people don't do it and that means you would have to bring action against them not the council or any other body. This means they rarely get any action taken unless they cause damage to your property at which point you can sue them.

Good job you have building control. The the chimney breast weight needs to be supported by an RSJ, in the past people took them out with inadequate support for the weight - generally okay but a bit risky!

www.labc.co.uk/news/how-to-get-it-right-removing-chimney-right-way-video-showing-wrong-way

Watch the video in this link for what can go wrong.