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175k am I bonkers? Pricing a potential renovation....how??!

111 replies

Greenlife1 · 09/11/2022 21:34

Might be being a right wally but how do people figure out how much money they need for a house that needs a shit tonne of work doing?!

Been looking for AGES. A house has come up in the (very small search) area we are looking at. It is 3 bed and we need 4. It is a 1960s dream. Nothings been done to it in the last 60 years apart from a newish conservatory and a little extension.

We would need to fit in a new bedroom so that could mean either a loft conversion or extension to the 2nd floor (not sure if planning would be given for the 2nd floor extension tho) would also need a little extension downstairs (possibly possible through PD).

Would like to move kitchen into the extension once we've built it. The kitchen would need to be redone. Would like to move and open up the staircase as it's really dark and awkward. Would like to make the integrated garage an office/ utility space.

I imagine it needs new boiler and rewiring.

The bathrooms need doing but they could wait or we could do them on the cheap.

Everything would need plastering once sorted and new flooring too!

I think we would have about 175k to spend if we got it for the price we would offer.

Any ideas how I can price this up for a very rough guide?!

Thanks x

OP posts:
Whereisthehugeteddybear · 10/11/2022 07:43

We had 4 large windows replaced about 5 or 6 years ago. Anglian windows quote was more than 4 x as much as the company we ended up using (local company who had previously done a conservatory for us)
When we had a quote for a kitchen from a local showroom (we live in an expensive area) it was more than 3 x as much as what we paid for exactly the same units from DIY kitchens, so it's worth doing lots of research.
FWIW we had our roof done just under a year ago and it was 20k.

Greenlife1 · 10/11/2022 07:46

Thank you. For a 100k In our last house we got 2 bathrooms a bespoke kitchen loads of wiring and plumbing and plastering amongst other bits and decorating so hoping it can be done!

OP posts:
Eastangular2000 · 10/11/2022 08:27

Yellownotblue · 10/11/2022 00:41

Why do you feel the need to be so rude? You have your taste and I have mine. I think the mirror cabinets you posted are flawed, I wouldn’t want them in my house. We had builders falling over themselves to tender for my project, so I know that we paid market rates. Not everyone is happy to go for the cheapest looking everything. Good on you if you do. I am quite passionate about design, so while I’m willing to compromise on some things, I also feel strongly about form and function. I only offered my views. You can disagree without being disparaging.

As for spending my money wisely - I’m astonished you can make that call, given you don’t know me or my financial situation.

It’s got absolutely nothing to
do with taste. You posted inaccurate and misleading information which indicated that a refurb on a 60s house would likely be in excess of 400k. Of course you could spend a million or twO if you wanted to but that doesn’t mean it’s remotely necessary. If you are willing to pay 450k for a refurb I am
not surprised you had builders climbing over each other to get to you!

Eastangular2000 · 10/11/2022 08:41

FurnitureDisease · 10/11/2022 06:45

Like I said, experience in the area, for many many years.

Without outing, I myself am both a designer and in survey and planning, and family members are the architects, builders and trades.

We span across London / Home Counties and in areas where COL is much less.

Both @Yellownotblue and @Eastangular2000 are correct, though it appears different viewpoints.

Sorry East, it’s not “bullshit” or “saw them coming”, that’s simply what Yellow wanted and was happy to pay.

Yellow is correct that costs can, and do, spiral. But, respectfully, a subset of people on MN is just that.
Not everyone lowballs or has costs unexpectedly go through the roof.
Some do.

There will, however, ALWAYS be some level of unexpected extra costs, it’s completely unavoidable.

Usually over-run timescales as well, though that’s a different topic.

There’s also a lot of variables we don’t know here eg. location of property and personal views on brands, product styles etc.

Could you do a homes under the hammer jobby with £5 psqm carpet and have it look shit? Yes.
Could you go all out and spend your fortunes? Yes.
That could equally look shit FWIW, if it doesn’t suit the character of the surrounding area or style of the property.

So many variables.

To get an accurate quote for building works and renovations get numerous firms in. Bare minimum 3 quotes, more ideally.
Some can do everything “in house” as it were, some will do only parts of what you need and it can get complicated logistically marrying up the different trades.

Half you call for estimates won’t turn up.
You’ll get some out-price you as they don’t want to do it, but can’t say that.
Some will be cheap. That’s never good.
If someone has a short / no waiting list, it’s because they are crap.
”Mates Rates” / family can be problematic.
You'll get a massive price range, with tens of Ks difference in prices.

Ask neighbours and friends who may have had work done so you can nose at standard and style of work etc.

Price ultimately depends on what level and quality of products you want, scope of building works and materials needed, how much, if any, work you can, or want, to do yourself, the area you live in etc.

FWIW Yellows kitchen clearly has stone / solid surface worktops and for 9k appliances in the Neff / mid range is going to include a specific set of items.
25k of cabinets is a large size and not going to be of the flat-packed variety.
This is why it’s those sort of prices, absolutely not unusual.

You could go way higher with the likes of Wolf, Subzero, Miele, bespoke cabinets.
You could do for much less with your Hotpoint, Indesit, CDA, laminate worktops, flat-packed.

You could have own brand paint, or Farrow & Ball.
Ceramic tiles, or natural stone.

You get the idea.

OP, first start with the bits you can’t control because you NEED the professionals - build costs, architects, surveyors etc.

The rest can be negotiated / compromised accordingly as they are wants / nice to haves.

Hope this helps a little.

It is bullshit to say that a mirrored cabinet is ‘at least’ 400 pounds because it’s just not true. Of course there is an enormous range in price depending on what finish you want. What I was objecting to was yellow posting as if a 450k budget is necessary to do the work the op detailed. If you engage an architect or PM to manage the project it will cost more, if you move out for the duration it will cost more in rent etc but none of these things are necessary.

Yellownotblue · 10/11/2022 10:39

@Eastangular2000 bloody hell, so much anger.

I shared my experience, you disagree with me. Don’t let that consume you 🤷🏼‍♀️

wonkylegs · 10/11/2022 11:04

At the moment the answer is probably a lot more than you think it should!
Prices are extremely high still and everything is costing a lot more.
I am an architect and have been tendering a lot of jobs at the moment for clients from new build to extensions and renovations and they are all coming in much much higher than similar work even a year ago.
We've had ridiculous figures from builders who I know want to work with us (long term working relationships) and they are across the board so we know they aren't pricing high because they don't want the work.
Prices are high mainly due to inflation, shortages, energy costs and supply chain problems but also because the extremely high demand in the domestic market hasn't sated despite the high prices.
My fees haven't gone up this year but will in April due to higher insurance, registration and licence costs. I suspect it will be similar for all the other consultants I work with (Structural engineer, building control)
The quotes we have had for a mid range spec for a refurbishment of a 60s house and new extension (2 extra bedrooms and kitchen diner & utility) have come in between around £300k & £400k - we went out to 6 companies to tender.
It sounds like yours requires slightly less than this one but is a similar scale.
For reference we went out for a pre planning tender at the beginning of the year for the same job and they came back at £150k-£270k. There haven't been any major spec changes in that period but prices have soared.

wonkylegs · 10/11/2022 11:10

BTW the spec for my clients is very mid range not expensive fittings and doesn't include the kitchen costs (which they will get themselves from IKEA or DIY kitchens)

Greenlife1 · 10/11/2022 13:01

Thank you all for your input. It is all very useful :)

I am definitely looking at the cheaper end of the scale. We did a project at our last house and went higher end and it was so not worth it. Never again.

We would certainly employ an architect for initial drawings. The 4th bedroom- be that via loft conversion, or 2nd floor extension, extending ground floor by about moving and fitting a kitchen to that new area are musts really. New floors, boiler and probable rewiring also musts and of course plastering.

I will post the floor plan if anyone is interested :) I have coloured in the rooms I want to change eg green would be small extension for new kitchen and linking in to the garden room. Orange family/ sitting room. Yellow smaller snug room. Grey area I'd like to open up the stairs a bit!

Garage convo for utility/ office would be great but could wait, bathroom modernisations could wait. I could possibly manage a bit myself, I can be handy when I need and I would decorate all myself.

Upstairs is the headache, we need that4th bedroom. Another loo or ensuite would be fab too but not essential.

This is link detached so I think I'm limited to what I'll be able to do over the garage for the 4th bedroom which is why I'm thinking might need to be a 2nd floor extension over new kitchen or loft conversion.

There's loads of things I'd want like wood burner, bi folds, nice lights but I can wait/ source 2nd hand etc...just want a functional family space!

If this happens we will continue to rent round corner, could not be living amongst that again.

Great tip about the car but mines such a sorry state I'll probably keep it on the drive way for sympathy!!!
Thank you all so much!

175k am I bonkers? Pricing a potential renovation....how??!
OP posts:
BlueMongoose · 10/11/2022 13:05

Yellownotblue · 10/11/2022 00:15

Happy to stand corrected. But do pop over to the Extensions thread for a reality check. You need to be prepared for contingencies. Loads of us have seen budgets double over the course of the project.

FWIW, our kitchen is not high end or bespoke, but cabinets came to 25k, worktops 8k, sink/tap/appliances 9k. I will admit it’s large, but not luxurious. Neff/Samsung appliances rather than subzero/gaggenau.

A bathroom for £10k is not a luxury bathroom - we’re talking Tap warehouse or such like for sinks, baths and toilets, Topps tiles or Mandarin stone for tiles, and cheap vanities. A vanity mirror cabinet costs at least £400. Yes you can source cheaper ones for £200 (we did for the kids’ bathroom), but they won’t look very nice. Taps, regulators and showers are expensive.

I don’t enjoy spending money and I wish our project had been much cheaper. But there is a huge amount of lowballing on MN and in the building trade, and that won’t help OP.

You also need to factor in architect fees, structural engineers, planning applications, party wall surveyor, building regs inspections. These will also add up.

I'd say if you aren't going for high end, you're going very close to high end. 8k just for worktops? that's high end. Price the same lengths up in Formica and tell us the difference.
We refitted a medium sized kitchen with basic but decent B&Q stuff for less than 8 grand, that's wall and floor units, plinths, sink, taps, worktops, and decorating, everything except the white goods. We did the work ourselves, though.

BlueMongoose · 10/11/2022 13:11

Yellownotblue · 10/11/2022 00:41

Why do you feel the need to be so rude? You have your taste and I have mine. I think the mirror cabinets you posted are flawed, I wouldn’t want them in my house. We had builders falling over themselves to tender for my project, so I know that we paid market rates. Not everyone is happy to go for the cheapest looking everything. Good on you if you do. I am quite passionate about design, so while I’m willing to compromise on some things, I also feel strongly about form and function. I only offered my views. You can disagree without being disparaging.

As for spending my money wisely - I’m astonished you can make that call, given you don’t know me or my financial situation.

The problem is not what you buy, or even what you can afford, it's you saying it's not high end, when it clearly is. Maybe not the very highest end, but close. It's clear you're very fussy, that's no problem, so am I on some things, I spent over a grand on a bespoke sink for my current kitchen, but in that case, where I am fussy I will say so, and not claim to be 'not high end'.

Summersdreaming · 10/11/2022 13:18

You could absolute do it for that money near me, but equally nobody would, because you can buy a 4 bed for £175k, so spending that converting a 3 bed to a 4 would be madness in most cases if the end result is only worth £200k.

LibertyLily · 10/11/2022 13:24

Ten years ago we renovated a 2500 sq ft, five bed period house (that wasn't listed) in Wiltshire. That included a vaulted ceiling kitchen extension (with double height hardwood windows), three bathrooms, new boiler/heating system, rewire and new flooring throughout the ground floor. We also revamped a former one bed annex that we incorporated into the main house as additional living space. Our fixtures and fittings were medium/high end - think Hans Grohe Axor Montreux, Villeroy & Boch, Perrin & Rowe, limestone floor tiling in kitchen/breakfast room etc.

We did the whole lot for £100k 😳 mainly because I spent ages online sourcing bargains! The limestone flooring (60 sq m plus a loo-tility) was a knock-off of Fired Earth Cathedral limestone at a fraction of the price because it was imported direct from Alexandria. Some of our bathroom sanitary ware was bought for less than RRP because we knew someone in the trade. We found an originally very expensive and huge Porcelanosa book matched marble-topped vanity for £300 on ebay. Our ridid, timber shaker kitchen cabinets (very similar to HMKOC) which I painted myself were £5k from an independent online retailer - and this was a large (36') kitchen.

We employed an architect - although he was a friend so his fees were (a bit) lower than normal. He suggested the extension - to shell stage - would cost £20k! In reality we spent about £40-45k on the build.

The biggest reason we were able to spend so little was that DH (and I) did most of the work - but not rewire, heating or building extension - ourselves.

Currently we're renovating a smaller, 1600s house and have so far spent around £120k. That includes drilling a borehole (£11k), new timber windows to front elevation, HMKOC kitchen, complete reconfiguring of layout (including moving kitchen to a different room and removing load-bearing walls/adding steels etc), one bathroom, new boiler, partial rewire, installation of two wood burners, some garden landscaping. It's not finished and I estimate we'll spend a further £20k which includes rebuilding a porch, adding a second bathroom. Again we've chosen good quality brands (ie, our Hornbeam Ivy kitchen tap was £700 and we've used Liberty wallpaper etc) but by DIYing as far as possible as well as shopping around, have saved a fortune. DH taught himself to plaster ages ago and I can only guess how much that's saved us over the years!

Diyextension · 10/11/2022 18:20

The truth is op, there is no way anyone can accurately budget for renovations, the only way it could be done is if you got a fixed price for every single part of the renovation, that includes labour and materials and nobody is going to do that. Not unless they put an astronomical price it to cover absolutely every worse case .

The price of materials changes all the time , and it’s always difficult to know how long work will take. Builders will have a rough idea as they do it more regularly.

The other posters who have quoted prices above are just going on what they have paid or guessing it’s impossible to say how much yours would cost as they haven’t even seen the house , there are lots of different factors that can alter the cost of building ( access, ground conditions, location , level of spec ) and so on.

sorry op not much help but 175 sounds like it should go quite a way, I wish I had that amount 🙂

Baxdream · 10/11/2022 18:36

We will have spent £100k on our new house. It's a 4 bed detached. It has included
Double garage conversion
Bifolds
New kitchen (handmade kitchen of Christchurch)
2 new bathrooms
Plastered throughout
New shed
New windows and front door
New boiler and radiators
New floor and carpet throughout
New doors and woodwork

I'm quite money savvy (eg new floor was from marketplace so half price etc) but don't underestimate how much the basics cost before you even think about extending.

FurnitureDisease · 10/11/2022 22:31

@Yellownotblue is right, believe it or not.
That kitchen and bathroom price / spec genuinely isn’t “high end” in terms of the home improvement market as a whole.

If we are talking a high street retailer, though, since PP mentioned B&Q, it’s at the top of the sort of price ranges you’ll get depending on the retailer.

Eg. IKEA or B&Q thats extremely uncommon to see that kind of value.
At Wren, Wickes etc. we get a few per day that sort of price.

Ive worked with literally all of them, BTW, from online places right up to bespoke £100k jobbies

I suppose it’s high end to many people (absolutely myself included, I wouldn’t ever pay anywhere near that despite it being my literal job, I’m far too poor LOL)

But the truly high end market comprises either a bespoke kitchen company / carpenter, or the designer German brands etc.
(I used to love parking myself next to Poggenpohls little stand at Grand Designs and trying to sell people the exact same thing for much less 😂)

Neff are literally middle of the road (Bosch-Neff-Siemens)

Pricey Pricey = Wolf, Subzero etc. at the high end where a range cooker alone is in excess of 25k, that was Yellows entire cabinet price.

Even if I had fortunes I wouldn’t buy it, why do I need 25k cooker to burn things on? 😂

Its all relative as they say

As a separate note, to my absolute horror my house came with the kitchen of nightmares so I’d take anything as an improvement 🙋‍♀️

Yellownotblue · 10/11/2022 23:08

@FurnitureDisease thank you. I’m strangely proud that my house is not high end 😁.

I did splurge on Japanese toilets though! And those are undeniably high end (though there are far more expensive models).

FurnitureDisease · 11/11/2022 00:28

@Yellownotblue well it is to some isn’t it, but then to that Arab Sheikh gentleman that had the £2 million kitchen you are quite the cave-dweller 😂

ooh those fancy ones, lah di dah

I just want to, at some point in my life, own a nice kitchen I’ve finally designed myself, not one that’s been thrown in apparently.

And a freestanding bath, that would be heavenly

Mondayagainohno · 11/11/2022 07:43

Sadly @wonkylegs is spot on prices have rocketed. We are london based and did renovations last year and I’d note the following :
builders are snowed under so getting them to even quote is hard. We went with one a neighbour had used who was great and really he really tried to keep to budget but materials and labour in short supply so prices obv increased and you stumble across unknowns
the extras of things like structural engineers, planning costs, building control, party wall agreements etc all seemed to cost at least £2k each so you can easily spend £10k there. Unlikely to find even a mid range kitchen and appliances coming in at less than £20k with work tops tiling etc. Paint is expensive in quantities that you require. We had £110k in mind and spent around £175k we love the space but maxed out credit cards and extended mortgage!
I wish you luck but please have a contingency fund. Things are just so different from 3-4 years ago

Greenlife1 · 11/11/2022 07:58

@Mondayagainohno @FurnitureDisease @Yellownotblue @Baxdream Thanks all very helpful stuff.

In our last property we went bespoke kitchen, the works. We are actually remote island and bring it with is as it was £££ and precious to me (daft I know but it took me months to source the top and it's completely unique) However. I've learned! I wouldn't do it again! I'll always lust over luxe products nut really my proposed budget is for the boring stuff wiring/ removing walls etc. I'm a dab hand at decorating, might even do the tiling. I intend to be a bit more budget conscious this time and actually a bit more economic friendly if possible;), especially with the current economic issues set to increase. Anything that I can do cheaper or second hand I will. If I want a really high end item I shall have to spend the time looking for a lovely alternative or saving up 😀

If anyone's interested I added a floor plan a couple posts up! I think rejigging the layout/ engineers/ surveyor may be a big expense.

OP posts:
itsalwayscycling · 11/11/2022 07:58

Prices have definitely gone up a lot- we extended 2 years ago and couldn’t afford the same build now. Remember you have to take 20% off your budget for VAT so a £100k build becomes £120k which is painful!!

Greenlife1 · 11/11/2022 08:01

@itsalwayscycling ouch!

May I please ask what your hard earned 120k got you?! X

OP posts:
itsalwayscycling · 11/11/2022 08:09

Took down an old small extension and replaced it with one twice the size, opened up old kitchen (steels etc needed) reasonably high end kitchen (in my opinion -Siemens appliances/ solid cabinets / marble tops) new boiler system with underfloor heating in extension, new utility rooms. It was def not the cheapest company but they project managed completely and we had no logistics to sort, also very very good craftsmanship / finishes.
it came in exactly on budget but I think they company took a hit on rising price of building materials etc as we had a fixed price quote (other than a few odds and ends we added in as we went)
good luck!!

GoonerGirl5231 · 11/11/2022 08:27

This is before loft conversion (150k)

150k for a loft extension??? Is it gold plated?

OP, you'll be looking at 60-70k for a loft including fittings. I think 175k is going to be tight to do everything you want to, but not impossible. It really depends where in the country you live. In London you'd need at least 250k (our friends have just done everything you want to do and after some unexpected underpinning issues, the final bill came in at 320k). I'd do the loft to get the extra bedroom and live with the downstairs for a bit longer, until I had more funds.

GnomeDePlume · 11/11/2022 08:30

We added an extension (approx 4.5m by 5m) and refitted our kitchen. Total cost was under £20k.

Builder did brick, block and roof work. DH did everything else including digging out for footings, fitting windows and doors, dry walling and electrical work.

DH used to be a Part P electrician and is still classed as a 'competent person' by building regs department. He is also very practical. I drew the plans which went to the council (I am not an architect).

We were ruthless with costs. If we could do it ourselves we did.

Greenlife1 · 11/11/2022 09:53

Thankfully we are not in London, although appreciate building costs and materials are increasing everywhere....

OP posts: