Who is responsible for this error (and pays to fix it)

[gregdaviesiswonderful]

Awake worrying about this and could do with some guidance on how to get this resolved

We have recently had a small extension to our home. Although small, we paid for an architect to design in as wanted to maximise the light.

BACKGROUND BELOW

The architects drew up a plan and one of the suggestions was a window seat...lovely

They submitted to planning and permission was granted

The architects also arranged for a structural engineer to give building control plans with calcs etc

The architects introduced us to a builder they recommended (we also got several other quotes to gauge value for money and quality etc)

We opted out of using a project planner as it's 15m sq so not a big or complicated space

The builder engaged with building control who (up until today) have visited twice with the head builder... we haven't been involved in these discussions as was to check foundations and steel beam

The builder uses their own contractors for things like electrics/flooring etc

The builder recommended a glazing company for the fixed window for the window seat

AND NOW TO THE ISSUE...

Building control came today to do a sign off and the builders weren't present. One of the areas they had concerns over was the big glass panel/window behind the window seat and said 'can you get the certificate showing this is safety glass as it's below the threshold from floor to first window'?

This was the first we've ever heard that it should be safety glass. It makes sense as people are sitting against it but hasn't been mentioned by anyone

We've checked...it's not safety glass! This now means we have the get the window pain replaced to comply with building control

So to my question..,, I have checked through the architects drawings which specify the size of windows, the structural drawings which specify the thickness of walls around the window, the emails with the glazing company who came to look and measure and the communications with the builder. No one has pointed out that this should be safety glass.

This is going to cost us as it's quite a big panel. Is this on us to pay for or do we have recourse to pick this up with someone else and challenge (and if so, who?)

Help appreciated as I'm panicking (as you can tell from middle of the night post!!)

I'm surprised this wasn't picked up by the window company. I would expect them
To know this.

How high is the window from the floor, and from the seat? Is it the height of the window from the floor that is the problem (less than 800mm), or the height of the window from the window seat (i.e. the seat counts as a floor)?

If the window is less than 800mm from the floor it needs to be safety glass. The glazing company, builder and architect would all be well aware of that. If the glazing company measured up on site, and failed to provide the correct glass, I think they are at fault. If the builder just bought a pane of glass of a particular size, and the glazing company didn't know where it would be fitted, I think the builder would be at fault.

If the seat counts as a floor... I would like to think someone other than you should bear the cost of putting it right, but less clear and you may have to pay for it.

I'm no expert though; I have merely had building work and new windows at home.

(If you are worried about the safety aspect of using the seat while potentially in dispute with builder / glazer / architect to get it replaced, you could use safety film on the window. Could be expensive if it's a big window, and won't meet building control.)

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be along soon. And hopefully someone else pays for the replacement.

You poor thing. At this time of the night the issue is amplified. Take a deep breath. In your shoes, I’d email the architect in the first instance as they drew up the plans and proposed the structural engineer to work on your project. Ask the architect to investigate with the structural engineer if safety glass is necessary in this case to pass both building control standards and safety moving forward. (You don’t need this to be an issue when you come to sell in the future nor place anyone at risk of actually sitting in the window seat). It is up to them to show that building control either is or is not correct at this point. Your builder is following plans/guidance drawn up by both of them and in this instance I think the structural engineer here should have identified a potential issue about the glass. Architects draw the ideas, structural engineers decide if they’re possible and then provide guidance to the builder to make them so. Your architect needs to help you navigate the way forward. Given that you weren’t providing materials to site and were not given a choice regarding the glass by anyone, I can’t see how this is your issue to pay to rectify. Unless someone can point out to the builder he was told about the glass and ordered the wrong glazing I can’t see that it is down to them either but if they are experienced builders I’d have expected them to have asked the question before ordering the glass as generally experienced builders would check as they do know building control standards. So my second email would be to the builder asking about the glass spec and why non safety glass was ordered contrary to building control’s advice. If your builder was on a fixed price contract, safety glass was specified and by ordering the cheaper glass he improved his profit margin I’d suggest there’s your answer and it’d be their issue to rectify. if however it was not a FPC and/or the plans for the glass spec was incorrect or unclear, I’d be pursuing the structural engineer regarding this.

Are you in greater Manchester op?
I hope his your builders initials are not AP.
Your contractor/ foreman is responsible. The window company will have delivered what he ordered.
Building control will never take responsibility, regardless of whether they mentioned it in their meetings or not.

@Sh05

Are you in greater Manchester op? I hope his your builders initials are not AP. Your contractor/ foreman is responsible. The window company will have delivered what he ordered. Building control will never take responsibility, regardless of whether they mentioned it in their meetings or not.

Unfortunately this may not be correct. What does your contract say with the builder? What is their responsibility? If it to project manage the whole project? Who contracted with the window company. If it is you, then it will be your problem unless your contract with the builder provides provision for their liability which I doubt

Meant to add, whilst not relevant in your case, this is why when having building work done it is dangerous for the householder to engage a builder but then lay each contractor separately to avoid VAT as this tends to muddy the waters around liability if it goes wrong

You say the builder recommended the window company - so presumably the builder didn't fit the window.

Did you order the window or did the window company come and measure up etc?

If you ordered the window and didn't order the required specs the architect had drawn up, it's your responsibility. If you ordered what was required and this wasn't provided, it's the window companies fault. If the builder sorted the window, it's their problem.

Surely the architect should have specified?

@spotcheck

Surely the architect should have specified?

I would think this.

It's for the architect and the builder to sort it out between themselves. It's not your mistake so you definitely should not pay to fix it.
Our architect made a similar, in fact much worse, error on the plans for our loft conversion which meant the clearance height of the top landing was too small. The builder noticed it but he of course said he built what the plans said.
The only way to rectify was to get new stairs built which cost a lot of money
In the end we did not pay. The builder and the architect somehow soaked up the cost between them. I think actually the builders didn't charge us or the architect for it as they want repeat business from the architect.

Thanks so much for so many helpful replies.

Honestly, it's such a small extension (conversion from conservatory) with no kitchen that we just didn't feel it warranted the project management fees (which were nearly 10% of the total build). To be clear, this fee would be charged from the architect to project manage.

The builder has commissioned contractors, we've not broken the job down for vat purposes: he is doing the job wholly

The architect plans showed specific size and location of all glazing but did not specify toughened glass. So it said eg 1300mm by 1400ml velux skylight: 2600 x 3200 bifold doors, and then just 'fixed glass window' for the one in contention

The builder recommended the glazing company: they provided the quote to me and I then paid it. The quote was for what the builder asked for: it did not specify safety glass but I paid it and had access to view it

The glazing company came to measure it and although it was a shell of the room, it was clearly below the threshold

The issue is that it is less than 800mm from the floor so must be safety glass for this reason

No, not in greater Manchester!

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

It's for the architect and the builder to sort it out between themselves. It's not your mistake so you definitely should not pay to fix it. Our architect made a similar, in fact much worse, error on the plans for our loft conversion which meant the clearance height of the top landing was too small. The builder noticed it but he of course said he built what the plans said. The only way to rectify was to get new stairs built which cost a lot of money In the end we did not pay. The builder and the architect somehow soaked up the cost between them. I think actually the builders didn't charge us or the architect for it as they want repeat business from the architect.

Ooof this would have been gut wrenching to discover!!

Pleased it was sorted in the end!!

Is it worth contacting another builder or glazing company and just asking their advice on where responsibility would lie?

@Netaporter wrote:
In your shoes, I’d email the architect in the first instance as they drew up the plans and proposed the structural engineer to work on your project. Ask the architect to investigate with the structural engineer if safety glass is necessary...

The question of what glass to use in the window has absolutely nothing to do with the structural engineer, any more that the question of what light bulbs to use, or how big the radiators should be.

The responsibility could lie with the architect, the builder or the glazing contractor but definitely not the structural engineer, who knows nothing about windows except that there need to be holes in their structure to accommodated them.

The glazing company should know this. They told us we needed safety glass in all our windows for the same reason. They have an etching in the corner to show this

@CasperGutman the selection of the correct building materials is exactly why a structural engineer is involved in any project?. Lightbulbs or radiators or any internal fittings are quite different to construction materials which in this case, the glass is part of according to the OP’s description?

I’m assuming @gregdaviesiswonderful that this is an oriel window you are installing?

Ultimately it's your responsibility, however...
If they are a proper architect, it's their responsibility. If not, check your contract with everyone regarding building regs.
Even if it's someone else liable, you would still have to pay for the window you should have had. Ie if safety glass costs double and fitting is more because it's heavy, you'd still have to pay the difference as that's the position you'd have been in if it was correctly specified.
Good luck, this kind of thing can be very stressful!

@Netaporter

I’m assuming *@gregdaviesiswonderful* that this is an oriel window you are installing?

Hiya, it's what's known as a portrait window I think. And it's already installed, hence the issue!! 😬

I think the mix of responses on this thread just shows our confusion over who to pick this up with.

At the moment it's a lot of finger pointing to each other!

@johnd2

Ultimately it's your responsibility, however... If they are a proper architect, it's their responsibility. If not, check your contract with everyone regarding building regs. Even if it's someone else liable, you would still have to pay for the window you should have had. Ie if safety glass costs double and fitting is more because it's heavy, you'd still have to pay the difference as that's the position you'd have been in if it was correctly specified. Good luck, this kind of thing can be very stressful!

Thanks @johnd2

The difference in cost is actually negligible as we'd gone for uv screened, triple glazed anyway so very happy to pay the difference which is under £100

It's a bit like this one

Who did building regulations? I think the assumption is always safety glass..highly unusual to not have safety glass.

The glass company should have sufficient knowledge - if they are reputable.

What is the cost to replace?

I agree! Unfortunately I’d say that the spec requirements for a portrait window rather than an oriel is less clear so it is sort of understandable how it might have happened I guess….so not helpful but I hope you get it resolved.

As a thought, and if you cannot get a resolution between all involved and given that funds are tight at the end of a project, could you remove the window seat to remove the requirement for safety glass? Not ideal but It’s then just a normal window?

@gregdaviesiswonderful

Awake worrying about this and could do with some guidance on how to get this resolved

We have recently had a small extension to our home. Although small, we paid for an architect to design in as wanted to maximise the light.

BACKGROUND BELOW

The architects drew up a plan and one of the suggestions was a window seat...lovely

They submitted to planning and permission was granted

The architects also arranged for a structural engineer to give building control plans with calcs etc

The architects introduced us to a builder they recommended (we also got several other quotes to gauge value for money and quality etc)

We opted out of using a project planner as it's 15m sq so not a big or complicated space

The builder engaged with building control who (up until today) have visited twice with the head builder... we haven't been involved in these discussions as was to check foundations and steel beam

The builder uses their own contractors for things like electrics/flooring etc

The builder recommended a glazing company for the fixed window for the window seat

AND NOW TO THE ISSUE...

Building control came today to do a sign off and the builders weren't present. One of the areas they had concerns over was the big glass panel/window behind the window seat and said 'can you get the certificate showing this is safety glass as it's below the threshold from floor to first window'?

This was the first we've ever heard that it should be safety glass. It makes sense as people are sitting against it but hasn't been mentioned by anyone

We've checked...it's not safety glass! This now means we have the get the window pain replaced to comply with building control

So to my question..,, I have checked through the architects drawings which specify the size of windows, the structural drawings which specify the thickness of walls around the window, the emails with the glazing company who came to look and measure and the communications with the builder. No one has pointed out that this should be safety glass.

This is going to cost us as it's quite a big panel. Is this on us to pay for or do we have recourse to pick this up with someone else and challenge (and if so, who?)

Help appreciated as I'm panicking (as you can tell from middle of the night post!!)

We had exactly this some years ago. Huge window and window seat. This was part of an extension re-build which was an insurance job. Building control said it was the wrong sort of glass. Turned out that there were two types of safety glass it could be. I forget exactly what now. One type would have markings on the actual glass - and that's what the inspector was looking for. Turned out we have the other type which doesn't have markings. Paper trail was available so all was well.