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Original poster

Who is responsible for this error (and pays to fix it)

53 replies

gregdaviesiswonderful · 14/04/2022 03:01

Awake worrying about this and could do with some guidance on how to get this resolved

We have recently had a small extension to our home. Although small, we paid for an architect to design in as wanted to maximise the light.

BACKGROUND BELOW

The architects drew up a plan and one of the suggestions was a window seat...lovely

They submitted to planning and permission was granted

The architects also arranged for a structural engineer to give building control plans with calcs etc

The architects introduced us to a builder they recommended (we also got several other quotes to gauge value for money and quality etc)

We opted out of using a project planner as it's 15m sq so not a big or complicated space

The builder engaged with building control who (up until today) have visited twice with the head builder... we haven't been involved in these discussions as was to check foundations and steel beam

The builder uses their own contractors for things like electrics/flooring etc

The builder recommended a glazing company for the fixed window for the window seat

AND NOW TO THE ISSUE...

Building control came today to do a sign off and the builders weren't present. One of the areas they had concerns over was the big glass panel/window behind the window seat and said 'can you get the certificate showing this is safety glass as it's below the threshold from floor to first window'?

This was the first we've ever heard that it should be safety glass. It makes sense as people are sitting against it but hasn't been mentioned by anyone

We've checked...it's not safety glass! This now means we have the get the window pain replaced to comply with building control

So to my question..,, I have checked through the architects drawings which specify the size of windows, the structural drawings which specify the thickness of walls around the window, the emails with the glazing company who came to look and measure and the communications with the builder. No one has pointed out that this should be safety glass.

This is going to cost us as it's quite a big panel. Is this on us to pay for or do we have recourse to pick this up with someone else and challenge (and if so, who?)

Help appreciated as I'm panicking (as you can tell from middle of the night post!!)

OP posts:
Original poster
gregdaviesiswonderful · 14/04/2022 09:42

@Netaporter unfortunately removing the seat doesn't solve the issue. It's that the window is less than 800mm from the floor so regardless, must be safety glass

@Fireflygal I know I should know the answer to this but what do you mean by who did building regs? We have documents called 'reg that was prepared by the structural engineer if that's what you mean?

OP posts:
Original poster
gregdaviesiswonderful · 14/04/2022 09:44

It's nearly £2k to replace but as some have mentioned, we are right at the end of the project so funds are drying up fast!

OP posts:
BonnyandPoppy · 14/04/2022 09:54

Our glazing company told us we need safety glass for our low windows as they were quoting. We also needed a second locking mechanism which they didn’t tell us! We had however put restricters on so that was ok for the building regs as the second locking mechanism.

Handsnotwands · 14/04/2022 09:54

i guess you would have had to pay for safety glass had it been specified, so may be the cost of the wrong glass should be covered by...someone....

BonnyandPoppy · 14/04/2022 10:16

I am trying to remember how it was with ours. We had an existing window and added a second to our kitchen diner. We had a project manager, a builder, building control and the glazing company. Designer drew the window but don’t think specified safety glass. Builder cut the window opening. Building control popped round every now and then and checked the lintels before the windows were installed. So I’m not sure if the glazing company guy hadn’t said as soon as he saw the one existing window as he was measuring up and looking at building plans for the other windows (that didn’t yet exist) that we will need safety glass that anyone else would have thought of it. The building inspector did certainly check for the kite marks on his final inspection as I was present when he did.

caringcarer · 14/04/2022 10:22

You hired project manager to be compliance with h&s. I would say they are to blame

AmandaHoldensLips · 14/04/2022 10:22

It's your responsibility I'm afraid. (I had something similar a few months ago.)

Unless you have employed a project manager, it's up to you to check requirements. I had a couple of question marks over stuff and the architect told me each time I should ring local building regs and ask them to specify exactly what is required to pass regs.

caringcarer · 14/04/2022 10:27

Oh have re-read and you did not have a Project Manager. That is why it is worth getting one, to avoid costly errors. You are to blame if no PM.

ThisMustBeMyDream · 14/04/2022 10:32

Is the whole window 2k to replace? The glass itself shouldn't cost 2k to replace. I just had a 90x50cm window pane replaced for £100 with safety glass. Every company who came around told me it was below 800mm so needed safety glass and they could not put anything else in as if they did they would be the ones in trouble.
In the first instance I'd go back to the glazing company for redress.

TeeBee · 14/04/2022 10:32

I'd email all the architect and builder, push it all back on them and ask them how they plan to rectify and pay for it.

Original poster
gregdaviesiswonderful · 14/04/2022 10:41

@ThisMustBeMyDream

Is the whole window 2k to replace? The glass itself shouldn't cost 2k to replace. I just had a 90x50cm window pane replaced for £100 with safety glass. Every company who came around told me it was below 800mm so needed safety glass and they could not put anything else in as if they did they would be the ones in trouble. In the first instance I'd go back to the glazing company for redress.
Frustratingly I'm told it is the whole thing that needs replacing as it will be thicker than the current glass so the frame also needs to come out too as well as patching up the area around it
OP posts:
user1471530109 · 14/04/2022 10:45

I don't know legally who is responsible. But the fact the window company came out to measure, surely means they have some responsibility here! I had a quote for new windows measured recently and they chap said I'd need safety glass as it was just on the borderline of the requirement.

OP, it certainly isn't your fault. As you have so many people with a 'joint' responsibility, I'd email the lot together and state you want them to sort this out amongst themselves to cover the cost.

Original poster
gregdaviesiswonderful · 14/04/2022 10:45

Thanks all for your input

I know there is a suggestion we should have used a project manager but it's literally 3m by 5m with no complexities and the quotes we had were £6-£8k which was just farcical on a £50k job.

So far communication has gone like this when challenged

Window company
We provided the window as required and ordered by the builder-he did not specify safety glass

Builder
I worked to the plans supplied by the architect and building regs drawings

Architect
It is not for us to specify materials, the builder should have discussed this with you

And rinse, repeat

Looks like this one might be down to us. But how we were supposed to check that something complied with a rule we didn't know about...

One to take on the chin and learn from perhaps

OP posts:
ThisMustBeMyDream · 14/04/2022 10:56

I'd question the fact you need a new frame. My unit was not safety glass as it was done before safety regs changed. They just fitted the safety glass in the existing frame. So ridiculously I now have one window with 2 panes, one being safety glass and one not! It isn't any thicker. It looks identical other than the markings to show it is safety glass!

DuchessofAnkh22 · 14/04/2022 10:58

Doesn't this come under FENSA regulation? Your glass company should be FENSA registered and should know this stuff. When we got pulled up for a wondow that was too small for a fire escape, the window supplier changed it.

7eleven · 14/04/2022 11:01

The windows company most likely didn’t know where the glass was going, so wouldn’t question if it needed to be safety glass.

I’d say it’s down to the builder.

FrangipaniBlue · 14/04/2022 11:02

Hi OP, DH has worked for many glazing companies over the years, has worked for himself and done all the going out to customers to measure up etc.

I showed him this bit....

The glazing company came to measure it and although it was a shell of the room, it was clearly below the threshold

He said 100% the glazing company's fault. The person measuring should have had sufficient training on rules and regs to know when safety glass is required and should have marked it up on their drawings.

The fact you saw the quote is irrelevant - you are Joe Public and therefore not expected to know rules and regs.

He said the only way they could've got out of it would be if they HADN'T been it and seen it and had done the order based on your architects plans (which may not necessarily be clear on the distance from ground).

7eleven · 14/04/2022 11:02

Hang on, they came and measured? If so, I’d say it’s the window people.

FrangipaniBlue · 14/04/2022 11:07

Window company
We provided the window as required and ordered by the builder-he did not specify safety glass

You need to go back to them and say no, YOU came out and measured up and saw the space prior to providing a quote. As a window company you are aware of the relevant safety regs FOR GLAZING and therefore should have advised that safety glass was required.

FrangipaniBlue · 14/04/2022 11:10

@DuchessofAnkh22

Doesn't this come under FENSA regulation? Your glass company should be FENSA registered and should know this stuff. When we got pulled up for a wondow that was too small for a fire escape, the window supplier changed it.
Yes it does.

The window company are required to supply a FENSA certificate to show that the window complied with building regs, you then show this to the BC Inspector.

So either they haven't provided the certificate (in which case go back and ask for it) OR they have provided one which is false because clearly the window doesn't comply.

Obviously if they haven't provided one and you ask, this opens up the conversation with them about why they didn't make sure it complied with building regs.

FrangipaniBlue · 14/04/2022 11:12

Have a read of this @7eleven

www.fensa.org.uk/why-you-should-always-ask-for-a-fensa-certificate

WinterSpringSummerorFall · 14/04/2022 22:41

@gregdaviesiswonderful

Thanks all for your input

I know there is a suggestion we should have used a project manager but it's literally 3m by 5m with no complexities and the quotes we had were £6-£8k which was just farcical on a £50k job.

So far communication has gone like this when challenged

Window company
We provided the window as required and ordered by the builder-he did not specify safety glass

Builder
I worked to the plans supplied by the architect and building regs drawings

Architect
It is not for us to specify materials, the builder should have discussed this with you

And rinse, repeat

Looks like this one might be down to us. But how we were supposed to check that something complied with a rule we didn't know about...

One to take on the chin and learn from perhaps

From this.... it can't be for you to take on the chin? I would go back to them all... and say you'll take it to small claims and also post online reviews unless they come up with a solution. Maybe splitting it in 4 (you included) to be fair.

Of course it is for the architect to specify materials.

And for the glaziers to know safety glass is required.

And for the builders to ensure everything is done to regulation.

And you'll chip in 1/4 out of the goodness of your soul.

PurpleToeNail · 15/04/2022 09:17

Any builder worth their salt knows damn well the rules about safety glass & window height. It's 101 basic knowledge.

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 16/04/2022 07:48

No way should you take it on the chin
Whoever's fault it is it isn't yours. You can't be expected to know the fine details of building regs! You paid professionals to do that so it must be one of their faults

I think it's the builders
They subcontracted the window company didn't they? In which case whether it was the building company or the window company it's all for the builder to sort out

Also you are far more likely to get the builders to put it right for free than the architect. As in our case they are able to absorb the cost far more easily. They can just agree not to charge for the labour and then it's one piece of glass to pay for

Do not roll over on this. If you have to then point out that business is all about reputation and would they not rather you have them a good review on Trust a Trader or in person to anyone who asks vs you go away with a poor impression and tell anyone who asks about this

We recommended our builders to my colleague who then employed them to have her whole house refitted because they were gracious about the architects mistake. The architect we did not recommend to anyone. When people asked who did our extension I warned them not to go with him in fact.

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 16/04/2022 07:54

BTW we did employ the architect to project manage ours as it was an extension and loft conversion 4x the budget of yours so a huge deal for us (done instead of moving house). It still did not save us from the heinous error but I guess it made it clear that it wasn't our fault although I still worried as I had been shown the drawings. Should I have been able to tell they were wrong? Then I gave my head a wobble. No- that is what I am paying these people for their professional knowledge just like people pay me for mine in my own area.

Stand firm OP. This cannot be your fault. It is the fault of one of the professionals you employed to do their job and they will need to absorb the costs of fixing it

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