Edwardian maisonette- love it but scared we might be making a mistake- can someone talk some sense into me please?

[ninkyno]

Really need some level-headed advice from you sensible lot.

You may have seen my previous thread about an Edwardian maisonette we went to view and how madly I fell in love with it- high ceilings, period features intact, perfect area, close to the station (I don't drive so this is a must). However, there was lots to compromise on: it was the top floor flat and the garden was to the side of the property (we have two DC under 6) and it needed updating to modern standards (electrics, etc.). Also, there are some complications with the lease, in that, the gentleman who owned it previously (the freeholder) never really had any leases drawn up for the property and so this is something that needs sorting asap. We made an offer on the flat and it was accepted for £700K (not central London). I was really excited about everything until this morning and then watched the news and become increasingly aware that inflation/recession could really bite us in the bum if we're not careful (have clearly been in denial until now). We definitely need to move (we're in a 2 bed flat which we've quickly outgrown) and my husband- the higher earner- will be changing jobs in a few months time which means our mortgage affordability will be impacted. What bothers me is that we can't afford to stay where we are (houses are coming on at £735K onwards and selling within days, often through discreet marketing) so need to move out but I need to stay in the same area due to the Children’s schools but if we were to not place importance on location then we could get a much bigger place with everything we needed- full house, direct access into the garden, etc.

As it stands, the maisonette is 2000sq ft so twice the amount of space we'd get for an actual house but a lot cheaper. There is nothing else on the market within budget currently.

Am I being U to want to go for the maisonette or should we back out and wait for something else to come up? My husband doesn't want to go into rental for a number of reasons but mostly because he thinks we'll be priced out of all local areas and won't be able to get back onto the property ladder if we wait. We both agree that we need to move from where we are. I'm just getting scared that we're spending close to a million pounds and not even getting the whole house. What would you do?

With DC under six I’d move areas to get a full house with direct garden access. The maisonette sounds fine and at least it does have a garden but the lease issue is whiffy and fully updating a property is hugely expensive, especially now – trades are charging more for labour, and parts have increased in price.

I remember your previous thread.

Personally with your circumstances of two children and life stage I really would opt for the house with direct access to the garden.

Of course 2000 sq ft is big and I really question whether you have that correct as I have a four bedroom house with enormous kitchen diner, utility room, downstairs loo, large sitting room, two upstairs bathrooms and we are not at 2k footage.

But a maisonette is always a maisonette and will have a price ceiling. Houses are a different matter.

Don’t underestimate the shopping and kids always going upstairs to the flat rather than opening your house front door and heading straight in.
The garden issue will certainly wear you down as you simply can’t throw open the back door and let your kids play outside where you can see them.

A house will increase in value more. For the level of stamp duty you will pay, then the upgrading, let alone what’s happening with the lease I would sacrifice your current area to look for a house in a more affordable location.

That’s huge - nearly twice the size of my house! Where is this?

I would go for the maisonette if you love it and the lease issue is sorted. I am very envious, i currently have a 2 bed flat and would love a bigger flat! if you are in a nice area in north london, you are not likely to get a house for 700k (unless ex council or very small or near a very busy road or not in catchment for desirable schools or in outer zones). So if that is your budget and you don't want to move because of schools/commute (its actually quite shocking how much a longer commute can add up as some of my colleagues who now have to commute at least 3 X a week are finding), then i think the maisonette might be your only choice. You can move out further but commuter fares generally increase in line with inflation (and inflation is high now).

Of course maybe house prices would slow down and you may be able to get a house in your preferred area (but probably not one bigger than 1000 square feet). That is a big maybe.

Are schools the only reason you feel you can't move to a new area? We've just moved and changed schools (mine is a bit older than yours) and it's truly been no big deal. It took about a week of settling in and now it's like we've always lived here. Kids are happy, loads of playdates with new friends, great new school, etc. I absolutely would not buy a flat if I could have a bigger house just to stay in the same area for school. You have to think long-term. And if moving further afield for better affordability is otherwise an option, I would consider it.

I moved to a large Edwardian upper flat with 6&7 yr olds.
The stairs were not a problem at all by that age. It was a lovely flat to live in, good air circulation with the high ceilings. I think the Edwardian houses are well constructed compared to more modern houses.
The higher ceilings do mean harder to heat, but we benefitted from the lower flat’s heat rising.
I wouldn’t sweat the stairs and garden issue as in only a year or 2 it won’t matter.

Deciding if relocating is worth it will be tricky. It isn’t the worst age to relocate for kids.

I wouldn’t sweat the stairs and garden issue as in only a year or 2 it won’t matter.
Why won’t the garden matter in a year or two? Confused by this!

In my experience, gardens you can’t easily access get used less – you end up drying washing indoors or using the tumble dryer, you don’t make the most of it or enjoy gardening, you may as well go to the park as the garden, etc. We had a flat in Brighton where the garden was up a steep flight of steps from the side return and psychologically it felt like a real slog to use vs gardens we’d had directly out of the door.

I also depend what kind of people your children are. We used to be really active and walk everywhere (like you I do not drive) and when we were home my kids much preferred to play quietly indoors and do puzzles or drawing, and liked the outdoors only if it was a big park, or going out someplace for an outing... although perfectly adequate, and we had a lot of meals out there, our garden was never a big attraction to them. Not all kids are outdoorsy.

I live in a big city where tenement flats, four in a blocks and maisonettes are really, really common. Thousands of families are bringing their families up in them right now and are doing just fine.

I also think there's a 'window' for 'needing' a garden - we missed that when we moved out of the city and our DCs have barely used the garden.

I'd be much, much more concerned about the lease issue than the flat itself and would definitely be asking your solicitor to look into that pdq. And I agree, your children are young so I don't think moving school should be an issue. If that's what you want to do. Otherwise, go with your heart.

Listen to your doubts.......they are trying to advise you.

(I wouldn't have bought it, but that's because I didn't see it, fall in love with it and want it. You're buying trouble. Material cost of bringing up to your preferred standard and sorting the lease.)

Don't be a mug.

This is now your second thread on this subject, with even more doubts thrown in i.e. the lease. Why wasn't/isn't that a huge red flag ?

What is it that you're not seeing.

All I'm hearing from you is but.......but......but.

Like trying to advise someone who doesn't want to listen, to ditch a bad news/hard work partner.

The maisonette is a big, difficult money pit. Not a family home. You are making a rod for your own back.

The thing is, we do not know the future: this could be the place which keeps on giving, which you love and is perfect for you; or it could be a money pit with lots of hurdles, and a space which ultimately does not work for your family. You won't know this until you own it, and live there.

Ultimately it all boils down if you are a risk taker or risk adverse.

I wish you best of luck, whatever you decide to do.

On Mumsnet almost everyone will tell you you can't manage without a garden when you have children! I've always lived in flats (disclaimer, do not live in the UK) and it's perfectly fine - but granted, I've always had a balcony. I don't think I'd like to be without that. I'd go for space myself, but it has to be useable space (space for a drying rack for clothes for example). The legal uncertainties would be more of a worry for me.

Is the stair leading to the garden solely used by your maisonette? And can the garden be made secure for the kids? If so, the fact that you have to go down a stair to the garden wouldn't really put me off at all.

@stuntbubbles
I moved from a house with back door leading directly into garden to an upper flat with only a small back yard when kids were 6&7.
The stairs, that other people seem to think are problematic, was not an issue. I hung Laundry in the yard no problem. There were no buggies to haul up the stairs. Shopping I carried up in 2 goes if it was a big shop.
I think when your kids are 3-4-5 having a back door leading straight into the garden seems vital for child supervision. Once they are 6-7-8 this simply isn’t as big an issue any more.
But it’s hard to see that when you are immersed in the needs of the 3-4-5 yr old.

WRT lease, my pal bought a similar flat and the lease was due to expire in a few years. It took 9 months for the previous owner to get it extended. She put this as a condition of sale. It worked our fab for her in the end. This had been putting prospective buyers off for ages, so she got the flat cheap. She made a stonking profit when she sold it.

@BlackishTulips Interesting! Thanks for your take – my experience of gardens via stairs is actually pre-kids. I’m a keen gardener and like the fresh air and vibe of “back door open to the garden”, and definitely found it more difficult without direct access.

Take your point about stairs and supervision etc changing once kids are older, and agree I never had much of a problem bumping the pram up our front steps. But it does all depend on the children, the buggy, the steps and the person doing the supervision! Personally I’d still want direct garden access even with older children – but for me! :)

[quote BlackishTulips]@stuntbubbles
I moved from a house with back door leading directly into garden to an upper flat with only a small back yard when kids were 6&7.
The stairs, that other people seem to think are problematic, was not an issue. I hung Laundry in the yard no problem. There were no buggies to haul up the stairs. Shopping I carried up in 2 goes if it was a big shop.
I think when your kids are 3-4-5 having a back door leading straight into the garden seems vital for child supervision. Once they are 6-7-8 this simply isn’t as big an issue any more.
But it’s hard to see that when you are immersed in the needs of the 3-4-5 yr old.[/quote]
Agree and am also happily bringing up children in an old (victorian) maisonette.

Also, there are some complications with the lease, in that, the gentleman who owned it previously (the freeholder) never really had any leases drawn up for the property and so this is something that needs sorting asap.

By whom ? A what cost ?

So, you're not even buying the freehold ?

Iceberg ahead ! That's the one with a red flag on it.

Length of lease ? 99 years ? 999 years ?

What are the terms of the lease ? I suspect it will suit the freeholder not the lease holder.

So, under what terms has the current occupier lived there ? What are they selling if there's no lease at present and you're not buying the freehold ?

How will you go about selling it in the future time if you've only the lease to sell ?

How have you gone from purchasing a property to getting mired in getting a lease agreement drawn up and for property at that ?

I'm assuming you love your kids more than you love the maisonette ?

Call me a goady fun sponge if you like.

On the one hand 700k for 2000 sq ft is fantastic space for the money, on the other writing up a lease and rewiring will be very expensive and what else needs doing? You may need a pump for the water on the top floor etc.

Just to extend an existing lease is £3000+

I'd get detailed estimates for the work that needs doing and make your decision from that.

@BlackishTulips

WRT lease, my pal bought a similar flat and the lease was due to expire in a few years. It took 9 months for the previous owner to get it extended. She put this as a condition of sale. It worked our fab for her in the end. This had been putting prospective buyers off for ages, so she got the flat cheap. She made a stonking profit when she sold it.

Extending an existing lease and writing one up from scratch is not the same thing at all.

I bought a flat instead of a house because it meant we could live in a nicer area and haven't regretted it once, if that helps. Some of our neighbours have kids and do just fine and if we ever manage one I don't think we'd be in any rush to move. Admittedly we were looking at a tiny fraction of your budget but I think the principle is the same in that if you moved to a different area you could afford a (very nice!) house. Just make sure you get a decent local solicitor rather than a national call centre type conveyancer, to make sure the lease issue is sorted.

Unless there’s some very specific reason why they can’t move schools, I would just change areas. Choose somewhere with good secondaries so you know you won’t have to move again.

Thanks all. To answer a few questions:

We're in an area where we're spoilt for choice for schools- both primary and secondary. It would be madness to move. We're also familiar with the area so it feels like 'home' to me. Also, the property is walking distance to the station, which me and my husband use to get into work. It takes us 28 mins to get to central London from where we are. Moving out would mean a bigger house for sure but more hassle in terms of commuting to work, etc.

As for the lease issue: the vendors solicitors are dealing with this atm. They'd put in leases for both flats at 999years. We've been told this issue can be resolved and take place alongside our conveyancing process. I'm due to speak to our solicitor later this afternoon.