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Talk to me about air source heat pumps

132 replies

RidingMyBike · 06/03/2022 08:27

We've just had an offer accepted on a house that needs a lot of work, including replacing an old boiler. It's been a longterm aim to have solar panels but we're also looking at an air source heat pump and had favourable comments from friends who have installed one - although they weren't on mains gas so have saved a lot not having to buy heating oil.

Any thoughts? Pros, cons? Things to watch out for?

OP posts:
autumn1610 · 01/03/2023 07:26

From what I heard it’s expensive to run if you don’t have amazing insulation, no drafts coming in I.e under doors/windows etc. this was coming from an engineer as I said ooh I thought they were meant to be really efficient and that is what I got told by them.

they brought a house recently with one and it’s not got the above and said the bills currently are eye watering

DelphiniumBlue · 01/03/2023 07:40

DS lives in a flat in a period property and the ASHP just doesn't do the job properly. I don't think you'd be able to get an old house up to the required insulation standard. It's always cold there, and takes 1-2 days to react to changes of temperature - eg if there is a sudden cold spell.

GasPanic · 01/03/2023 11:25

Heat pumps basically create "free" energy (in fact they extract energy from the input air). The amount of free energy they create (called the COP or coefficient of performance) can be as high as about 4x the energy that is put in. But can be as low as 2x.

Unfortunately the amount of free energy is also dependent on the output and input temperature of the pump. The lower the input temperature compared with the output, the less free energy is created. What this means is that in winter the COP is much lower than it is in summer. This leads to a new measure of performance, SCOP (seasonal coefficient of performance) which takes into account the seasonal variation in temperature.

If you are competing with mains gas, the key is to get your SCOP better than the price difference between electricity and gas. This corresponds roughly to an SCOP of about 3 (electricity is about 3.5x the price of gas, but gas is only about 90% efficient in heating in a new gas boiler).

Getting the SCOP to this level is not impossible, but you probably won't get a huge amount more than this. A house in a relatively mild climate on the south coast might do pretty well but in the centre of Scotland much less so.

Heat pumps require bigger radiators (because they heat the water to lower temperatures so effectively you run the radiators at lower temperature for longer to put the same amount of energy into the house). This means retro fitting to an old house can be more difficult. Sometimes it is just not practical to get the amount of required radiator in a room and you need to move to wet underfloor heating instead.

They require better insulation because a heat pump generally will deliver much less power than a gas boiler, generally the energy input is made the same as a gas boiler by running them at lower power for longer than a gas boiler. Insulation is used to prevent energy leak, but also to ensure that the temperature of the house can be changed in a reasonable amount of time.

So my advantages/disadvantages against mains gas would be :

i) Probably similar running costs if best SCOP is achieved. At best running costs won't be a huge amount cheaper.

ii) More expensive to install - especially if radiator retrofit and insulation retrofit is required. Heat pump itself probably similar to boiler in terms of unit (with grant). Grants may neutralise some of the cost.

iii) Will become increasingly green as electricity supply decarbonises.

iv) Maintenance vs. gas boiler currently unknown. Seems more difficult to get service engineers currently.

v) Operating lifetime vs. gas boiler currently unknown.

vi) No flue emissions (gas boiler emits largely CO2 and water vapour).

vii) Generally noisier in terms of fans.

viii) Worst in terms of instantaneous heating (for example they do not do as well as gas if you switch the heating off for 3 days while you are away, then want to return and heat the house up quickly, thus costing you more money).

Taking into account all of the above, my feeling is if you are trying to retro fit a heat pump instead of mains gas to an existing property that has not been designed for heat pumps then it is almost certainly not worthwhile, or at least should be investigated very carefully evaluating the running costs and the installation costs vs. mains gas prices atm. Of course there is nothing to say that in the future the government may change the electricity:gas pricing ratio.

I think in all cases, if you are thinking of getting a heat pump it is worthwhile commissioning an independent consultant (make sure they are independent and not selling for one of the heat pump companies) to figure out whether you would be better spending your money on a pump or on something like solar instead.

SpyouttheLand · 01/03/2023 17:05

They don't create free energy, that's not possible (see the First Law of Thermodynamics) they extract thermal energy (heat) from the air. Unfortunately they use electricity to do it and electricity is very expensive. Also at the time you most need the heat, the air isn't very warm.

I agree with PP, ASHPs are the next diesel engine. Pushed by government as an environmental solution and will prove to be an expensive mistake for many.

knitnerd90 · 01/03/2023 17:11

I am convinced there is something going on with how ASHPs are being installed in the UK as other countries, with colder weather, are adopting them with great success. I have one in the USA and it's great. There's a very popular programme in Maine to install ASHPs. (This is helped by the fact that most of Maine does not have mains gas and so ASHPs are replacing propane and fuel oil tanks.) The new generation of ASHPs can handle cold temperatures with proper installation and are being used in Germany, the northern USA, Canada, Scandinavia.

MrsJamin · 01/03/2023 17:17

So many uninformed people here with their opinions - it's really not helpful to those who are genuinely looking into it. We have had a ASHP for over a year and I can confirm:

  • it works well even at very low British temperatures
  • it uses electricity as a kind of multiplier to the energy it derives from the air (the COP) - 3 is sufficient but we have measured it to be sometimes over 5.
  • it works really differently to having a gas boiler and so you must monitor how you've set it and adjust to make sure you get it working well. it doesn't just go on twice a day. In the really cold snaps we had it managing the indoor temperature 24/7 but it actually cost us less.
  • it does need some managing and attention to get the most out of it. We use a clever smart home system called Home Assistant where we connect it to sources such as the outside temperature now and the anticipated temperature in the next few days. If it is foreseeing a sudden cold snap it is on more so you don't feel it. Even if it is not anticipated, it definitely doesn't take 1-2 days to respond, that's ridiculous.
  • you get more out of it if you have solar, which we don't have yet but we will do.
  • your system will be as good as the company who installed it and whoever consulted you about your house's readiness for it - if your house isn't well insulated, you won't get as much out of it. If you're in the South East DM me and I'll recommend our installers - they were AMAZING but made us see that crap installers would have resulted in a crap system.
  • I have literally never heard ours unless I've been standing right next to it.

Seriously, if you've never had an ASHP, it's really not helpful to say that your neighbour's dad's friend had it and it was crap- they were probably crap at understanding it and using it. It's different, it's quite complicated, but it's great for us and our house.

MrsJamin · 01/03/2023 17:28

What's wrong @knitnerd90 is that the people in the UK are being misled by the telegraph and other publications and are spreading stupid mistruths like on this thread! We cannot continue to heat our homes on dinosaur juice and wood, people!

MrsJamin · 01/03/2023 17:35

Seriously, it is SO blatant - just have a scan of the article titles www.telegraph.co.uk/heat-pumps/

StatisticallyChallenged · 01/03/2023 17:56

They're not right for every house, my old place wouldn't have worked at all. New build house, well insulated, now with added solar panels and batteries is making ours very cheap to run indeed. We're in Scotland too, not a warm part of the country.

The problem is people being pushed towards them in properties where they are unsuitable. A retrofit is very expensive and beyond most people's reach

screamingj · 01/03/2023 18:18

The people I know that have them are taking them out. There's no comparision between a gas boiler and an ASHP. Gas boilers are much more effective on old properties. ASHP can't pump out big heat.

GasPanic · 01/03/2023 18:19

MrsJamin · 01/03/2023 17:17

So many uninformed people here with their opinions - it's really not helpful to those who are genuinely looking into it. We have had a ASHP for over a year and I can confirm:

  • it works well even at very low British temperatures
  • it uses electricity as a kind of multiplier to the energy it derives from the air (the COP) - 3 is sufficient but we have measured it to be sometimes over 5.
  • it works really differently to having a gas boiler and so you must monitor how you've set it and adjust to make sure you get it working well. it doesn't just go on twice a day. In the really cold snaps we had it managing the indoor temperature 24/7 but it actually cost us less.
  • it does need some managing and attention to get the most out of it. We use a clever smart home system called Home Assistant where we connect it to sources such as the outside temperature now and the anticipated temperature in the next few days. If it is foreseeing a sudden cold snap it is on more so you don't feel it. Even if it is not anticipated, it definitely doesn't take 1-2 days to respond, that's ridiculous.
  • you get more out of it if you have solar, which we don't have yet but we will do.
  • your system will be as good as the company who installed it and whoever consulted you about your house's readiness for it - if your house isn't well insulated, you won't get as much out of it. If you're in the South East DM me and I'll recommend our installers - they were AMAZING but made us see that crap installers would have resulted in a crap system.
  • I have literally never heard ours unless I've been standing right next to it.

Seriously, if you've never had an ASHP, it's really not helpful to say that your neighbour's dad's friend had it and it was crap- they were probably crap at understanding it and using it. It's different, it's quite complicated, but it's great for us and our house.

Some points :

i) Most people don't want to be spending ages messing around optimising a heating system. They want it installed and working out of the box.

ii) COP of 5 is great. But the rub is that that will happen in the summer when you least need the energy, whereas the COP of 3 will be at the coldest point in winter when you need the most energy. A COP of 3 is hardly beating mains gas, so unlikely to justify the install cost. In fact SCOP doesn't accommodate the fact that most peoples usage is heavily biased to the winter. You really need a metric that plots SCOP against typical usage, which for me is probably 3x higher in the winter than in the summer.

iii) Solar is good, but again unfortunately the solar output tends to be high when the COP is high - in the middle of summer, when you least need the energy. Solar and heat pumps don't really balance each other that well - although generally I am a big fan of solar and I think all the heat pump grants should be transferred to solar instead.

GasPanic · 01/03/2023 18:32

knitnerd90 · 01/03/2023 17:11

I am convinced there is something going on with how ASHPs are being installed in the UK as other countries, with colder weather, are adopting them with great success. I have one in the USA and it's great. There's a very popular programme in Maine to install ASHPs. (This is helped by the fact that most of Maine does not have mains gas and so ASHPs are replacing propane and fuel oil tanks.) The new generation of ASHPs can handle cold temperatures with proper installation and are being used in Germany, the northern USA, Canada, Scandinavia.

I think it is two things. One is that a lot of places do not have mains gas. We take it for granted in the UK, but a lot of countries do not have a mains gas network. If you are competing against resistive electric heating, any COP over 1 starts to look good, and the calculated time to payback is easy to figure out. Hence people are more willing to go for them and be happy with the performance.

The other is that the UK has particularly poorly insulated houses, so we need more energy in the first place to keep our houses warm. Heat pumps don't have the power levels gas boilers can deliver, so they can't heat up as fast. Plus if your house is poorly insulated you are often unwilling to leave the heating on while you are not in residence and tend to run it cold at night and cold during the day when you are out at work. This variation is not suitable for heat pump operation.

I think a lot of people also miss the fact that if you insulated a house to the same standard that is required for a heat pump, you would also use considerably less gas in heating it ! Because of this I think it makes a lot more sense to focus grants on insulation (because if your house is well insulated you can always move onto a heat pump at some time in the future in a two step process) rather than subsidising heat pumps. That is a win win for me, because it would reduce the gas usage, prepare the housing stock for possible heat pump upgrade while reducing carbon emissions. Probably doesn't look as eco-sexy as heat pumps though, or shovel money into the places the government wants it to go.

Fladdermus · 01/03/2023 18:46

Air source hear pumps are extremely common here in Sweden in winter so the idea that parts of the UK might be too cold is beyond silly. They're so common that you can now buy one from IKEA. We're currently saving up for a more expensive one that switches to air cooling in the summer.

MrsJamin · 01/03/2023 19:35

We had a COP of over 5 a few weeks ago, so height of winter. Yes it takes a while to optimise it but once you have the systems in place it just runs well.

GasPanic · 01/03/2023 19:47

MrsJamin · 01/03/2023 19:35

We had a COP of over 5 a few weeks ago, so height of winter. Yes it takes a while to optimise it but once you have the systems in place it just runs well.

Is that a ground source or air source heat pump ?

Alexandra2001 · 01/03/2023 19:51

Fladdermus · 01/03/2023 18:46

Air source hear pumps are extremely common here in Sweden in winter so the idea that parts of the UK might be too cold is beyond silly. They're so common that you can now buy one from IKEA. We're currently saving up for a more expensive one that switches to air cooling in the summer.

Yeah but Sweden has crazily well insulated homes, we lived in a 1950s block of flats in Stockholm, it needed hardly any heating, it was so well insulated.

UK has some of the worst insulated homes in Europe... thats the difference.

WithManyTot · 01/03/2023 20:19

We've had one since 2018, in a rural North West Walse setting with no gas.

It is fine, however.....

We have an EPC Band A self build, so very good insulation and need very little heating. Last month (Feb) our electricity bill for everything was £160, for a 5 bed house, because, we only needed the heating on for a hand full of hours. We have solar PV too, but that is a bit of a red herring. If the sun is out enough to make sufficient electricity, a house should be warm to not need heating.

So, yes, it can be the future of low carbon heating, but only hand in hand with better insulation. I'm not sure I want one in a low efficiency house, but even more I'd never have an EPC C or below house ( I'd improve it )

As I said to the architect at the start of our project, "If we insulate it to make it low energy, it doesn't matter what heating we choose, as we won't need any".

MrsJamin · 01/03/2023 20:33

An air source heat pump, as I've said many times on this thread.

MrsJamin · 01/03/2023 20:34

That was to @GasPanic

StatisticallyChallenged · 01/03/2023 21:20

WithManyTot · 01/03/2023 20:19

We've had one since 2018, in a rural North West Walse setting with no gas.

It is fine, however.....

We have an EPC Band A self build, so very good insulation and need very little heating. Last month (Feb) our electricity bill for everything was £160, for a 5 bed house, because, we only needed the heating on for a hand full of hours. We have solar PV too, but that is a bit of a red herring. If the sun is out enough to make sufficient electricity, a house should be warm to not need heating.

So, yes, it can be the future of low carbon heating, but only hand in hand with better insulation. I'm not sure I want one in a low efficiency house, but even more I'd never have an EPC C or below house ( I'd improve it )

As I said to the architect at the start of our project, "If we insulate it to make it low energy, it doesn't matter what heating we choose, as we won't need any".

Ours is remarkably similar performance - also an EPC A 5 bed, new build.

We have solar, big batteries and an EV so we have a cheap overnight rate which we use to charge both the batteries and the car. If I strip that out - so just take house use less solar we were able to use - and use the price cap rate then we'd come out with a monthly cost of £168 for Feb. So really close.

We're actually sitting at £58 + standing charge, and that includes the car which is over 40% of our energy use. The cheap night rate + batteries makes such a difference even though our day rate is a bit higher.

Fladdermus · 02/03/2023 11:19

Alexandra2001 · 01/03/2023 19:51

Yeah but Sweden has crazily well insulated homes, we lived in a 1950s block of flats in Stockholm, it needed hardly any heating, it was so well insulated.

UK has some of the worst insulated homes in Europe... thats the difference.

I wish that were true. Mine is a freezing cold, draughty old farm house. We're gradually adding extra layers of insulation to the external wall and replacing windows where ice forms on the inside but it's expensive and we have to save.

GasPanic · 02/03/2023 11:24

MrsJamin · 01/03/2023 20:34

That was to @GasPanic

I think the problem is the COP of 5 illustrates one of the issues with heat pumps I have.

You say "a few weeks ago in the height of winter" - that wouldn't correspond to the unseasonably warm period we had around the 10th of Feb where temperatures were 10-12 C and about 6C above the normal average would it ?

And there lies the problem. Heat pumps are great when the outside is at that temperature, but at that temperature I don't actually need any energy putting into the house - the house is warm enough as it is - I actually turned my heating off for 4 days during that period and the house was at about 17C.

The time I would really need a heat pump to heat the house is when the outside temp is -whatever to 5 degrees (and somewhat less 5 to 10 degrees) but at those temperatures the COP drops quite rapidly down to something approaching mains gas.

Even if I could achieve a COP of 4 during the coldest periods when I use the most mains gas, it would still give minimal improvements for me over gas. It would only require it to be a few K extra to install it and it would take years to recover the installation costs, because even at 11p per kWh £2000 buys you an awful lot of gas.

I'm feeling at the moment the extra money that a heat pump would use in installation costs is better used on improving my insulation rather than making the transition to a heat pump. My bet is that in 10 years time the technology will be better worked out here and we will have more info on things like breakdown/maintenance costs re mains gas. That is the point where I might consider switching.

Alexandra2001 · 02/03/2023 12:54

Fladdermus · 02/03/2023 11:19

I wish that were true. Mine is a freezing cold, draughty old farm house. We're gradually adding extra layers of insulation to the external wall and replacing windows where ice forms on the inside but it's expensive and we have to save.

Well, it is true, Sweden has some of the best well insulated housing in N. Europe, even our summer house nr Upsala had levels of insulation that a Barretts house does not have.

Just because you re in one that isn't doesn't alter that fact plus you ve turned your argument on its head too as you said Sweden is freezing and widely uses ASHP's... industry advice is that they only really work in well insulated homes, other wise too much electricity has to used to supplement heating.

Fladdermus · 02/03/2023 13:06

Alexandra2001 · 02/03/2023 12:54

Well, it is true, Sweden has some of the best well insulated housing in N. Europe, even our summer house nr Upsala had levels of insulation that a Barretts house does not have.

Just because you re in one that isn't doesn't alter that fact plus you ve turned your argument on its head too as you said Sweden is freezing and widely uses ASHP's... industry advice is that they only really work in well insulated homes, other wise too much electricity has to used to supplement heating.

There's a big difference between 'Sweden has crazily well insulated homes' and your subsequent 'Sweden has some of the best well insulated housing'. I replied to your untrue, sweeping generalisation.

And what argument of mine have I turned on its head? That Sweden is freezing? Is it not then? That it widely uses heat pumps? Does it not then? That my house isn't well insulated? You know that it is? Confused

Alexandra2001 · 02/03/2023 18:19

Fladdermus · 02/03/2023 13:06

There's a big difference between 'Sweden has crazily well insulated homes' and your subsequent 'Sweden has some of the best well insulated housing'. I replied to your untrue, sweeping generalisation.

And what argument of mine have I turned on its head? That Sweden is freezing? Is it not then? That it widely uses heat pumps? Does it not then? That my house isn't well insulated? You know that it is? Confused

Sweden has had high standards of insulation for housing since WW2., generalisations are just that, you obviously live in an old style property with poor insulation but that doesn't make what i said untrue, they are way above the UK on this.

i'll phrase it differently, the vast majority of Swedish homes are extremely well insulated, hence why heat pumps work.
This is not the case in the UK, we ve some of the oldest housing stock in Europe.

I hope you get your new insulation, a heat pump & it works out for you, Sweden is a beautiful place.

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