Is a 3 bed flat in St Albans a bad idea?

[onlychildhamster]

Firstly a lot of people on this thread are probably going to tell me to go for a house with garden rather than a flat? But I have always prioritized location and the houses in the areas I am interested in (Hampstead Garden Suburb, East Finchley, Muswell Hill and St Albans) are very expensive unless they are very small and as I am not a very outdoorsy kind of person, I need indoor space rather than outdoor space. Furthermore houses usually carry a premium which far exceeds the service charges (I currently own a 2 bed flat and the service charges are around £150 per month which I find ok; a house in my area the same size on the other hand would be 200k more)

I would like a third bedroom as a home office and hence I am in the market for a 3 bed. I really love London but i haven't found many nice 3 bed flats in my local area (east finchley/hampstead garden suburb) and Muswell hill is very expensive.

I found this lovely flat here: www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/115501745#/floorplan?activePlan=1&channel=RES_BUY

my DH is very fixed on being in zone 3 (and like me, doesn't mind flats) . But Muswell Hill is very buzzy and well connected to London so in a sense, even though I am a diehard londoner, I don't feel that bad moving there as I know that if I am willing to pay the transport costs, its quite easy to get back to London (judging from the number of times my DH has 'accidentally' ended up in St A when boarding a thameslink train from blackfriars!). For my first property, I did look at St Albans but it wasn't that much cheaper for a 2 bed flat as compared to London zone 3 + transport costs. However, it makes more sense when you look at bigger flats which carry a much higher price premium in London.

i mean this well, but please don't suggest I move to Hitchin/Bedford/cheaper location where I can get a house. It will take me an age to persuade DH about St Albans, never mind Bedford! When we bought our flat, DH wanted to live in zone 2, I managed to persuade him about zone 3 and that was an uphill task! While zone 4-6 would geographically be closer than St Albans, I find that St Albans has a more vibrant town scene and faster rail links to the city (the con is that the transport costs are higher); but overall feels more 'city-like'.

We don't have a car and don't plan to get one so we need a place that is walkable to the station. We are planning for a child in a few years, and where I come from, 95% of children grew up in flats and while I did have outside space, my father had extended the house to such an extent that we only had a patch of grass at the front so my DH doesn't even consider it a garden and it certainly isn't big enough to play in!

Does he have to work in the office every day? That seems quite unusual now for banking firms. If he changes jobs at some point and only goes in 1-3 days a week then St A would be great. Much nicer lifestyle.

Not sure if relevant to you but there is a lovely synagogue and Jewish community in St Albans. As well as the cathedral and lots of churches so it’s quite a religious sort of place which I’m not sure many people know. It’s quite flash yes but also very community minded with lots going on every weekend, great restaurants etc. More to do than MH. Prob easier to get into central London too as the train is usually fast.

@shenanigans5 yes i think thats what i feared. We don't drive and even if we did, I wouldn't want to be reliant on a car. I mean, I think car ownership would probably only get more and more expensive ( I come from a country where the certificate to own a car costs about £15k-30k excluding cost of car and while it sounds crazy from a uk context, I honestly think mass car ownership wouldn't be as common as it is now esp with the net zero target). Neither DH or I value cars so we don't really want to be in a situation where we kinda can't do without a car.

I think the not driving is more of a problem than anything once you leave London, we found out there was no alternative to the kids Oyster card and no free travel, which became an issue once ours were older.
We moved out from MH (but to a village location in Bedfordshire) I had to drive everywhere.
St Albans is lovely, a friend from my village moved there so I visit often and the park is lovely.
My DH ended up working back in London and had to commute every day, (pre Covid) it was expensive, time consuming but fine.
We are moving back to London and can’t afford MH so are buying a house in Bounds Green, not ideal but it will work for us for the next 5 years or so, but it would be different if we had, children, schools to consider etc.
If you stay in London, how would you get your child to school? Can you easily get there on a bus?

@onlychildhamster
If we bought a flat in East Finchley or Hampstead Garden Suburb,
Akiva Primary- walkable from both areas
Private would be Annemount (tube). the hampstead schools could be an issue but still possible by bus and the traffic isn't great anyway. NCLS has a bus service, i think.

If we bought a flat in Muswell Hill, Eden Primary would be walkable
Same applies for private- bus/tube.

Secondary school would be buses, i think. JCOSS has a school bus service from east finchley/muswell hill/hampstead garden suburb/any area with sizeable jewish population. DH used to go to JFS and he took the school bus/cycled.

My DH grew up in London and his mum had 4 kids and no car. Her children went to a private jewish school in stamford hill (school bus), a local primary school (walking), JFS (bus/cycling), Hasmonean (bus).

Sorry @Itscoldouthere

If we bought a flat in East Finchley or Hampstead Garden Suburb,
Akiva Primary- walkable from both areas
Private would be Annemount (tube). the hampstead schools could be an issue but still possible by bus and the traffic isn't great anyway. NCLS has a bus service, i think.

If we bought a flat in Muswell Hill, Eden Primary would be walkable
Same applies for private- bus/tube.

Secondary school would be buses, i think. JCOSS has a school bus service from east finchley/muswell hill/hampstead garden suburb/any area with sizeable jewish population. DH used to go to JFS and he took the school bus/cycled.

My DH grew up in London and his mum had 4 kids and no car. Her children went to a private jewish school in stamford hill (school bus), a local primary school (walking), JFS (bus/cycling), Hasmonean (bus).

I think a car is a total essential in St A if you have kids. It’s not the proximity to the station that causes an issue but taking kids to swimming lessons, soft play, play dates, nice walks, pub lunches, birthday parties, the cinema, the doctors etc etc. Public transport doesn’t cut it. Driving would be a deal breaker for me in St A. I’d much rather be in London if we didn’t have access to a car.

I know the odd person in St A who doesn’t drive but haven’t come across a family where there isn’t at least one parent able to ferry everyone about.

@shenanigans5 Thank you for your insights. I really appreciate it. In London, I know its doable because my MIL did it with 4 kids! Of course her children didn't have soft play, play dates or extra curricular activities but still the logistics of 4! And they did have nice days out. And unlike her, I am not averse to Uber (and have the budget); I use it when things are slightly awkward to get to/a bit cold and its still much cheaper than owning a car.

It’s probably worth checking out how the bus works based on where you would want a child to go, I know that sounds crazy (when you don’t have a child yet) but seeing the key elements from your post, you do want at least one child and would need a Jewish school, so anywhere you decide to live will need to accommodate this.
Like you say lots of Jewish families in North London with children who use public transport, but don’t forget that the roads have changed so much since your DH was going to school on public transport so time/distance is now probably more of a consideration.
I say this as someone who many years ago used to drive daily from Streatham to Camden to work, not even a consideration these days.
It’s probably worth looking at the Jewish school options if you consider St Albans, schools become such a massive thing, it was a big part of why we moved from MH and also why people want to live in MH making it expensive, It sounds like the same applies to St Albans.

Yes, I agree. Totally possible to live a good car free life in London (I did for years!). Glad it’s helped with the decision making process 🙂

@Itscoldouthere The Jewish kids are still taking the bus to JFS, I used to take the bus with them :)

I don't need a Jewish school, I am open to all types of schools in all honesty but if I stayed in London, it would probably be jewish school. I am Liberal so it doesn't matter as much; some people do send their kids to Jewish school but many people also send their kids to private/grammar. Very few send to regular comprehensives (local non Jewish primary schools are quite common), but I think that generally has to do with the areas that Jews live in- Hendon/Finchley Central/Golders Green/Ilford are not known for their amazing secular comprehensives so it seems that even for irreligious/Reform Jews, they do tend to opt for Jewish schools esp now we have more options with cross communal schools. Its a different story for orthodox Jews (like my MIL), she was adamant that all her children had to go to Jewish school but even now she says that it didn't suit all her children and due to circumstances, she had to be more flexible on that regard- no 3 child went to a local non Jewish primary school as she was miserable at the private jewish school in stamford hill and today, she is the most religious of the 4.

There aren't really any Jewish school options in St Albans, it is outside the catchment for Yavneh in Borehamwood as far as I know but Yavneh is too religious for me anyway

Oh well that’s good then as it gives you more options, I certainly know lots of families in MH who’s children got buses to the grammar schools and there were quite a lot of Jewish children at Fortismere.
I suppose it doesn’t really help though as like you say your budget only stretches so far and you can’t afford to stay in East Finchley. Would you consider moving across the North Circular? You would get more for your money?

@Itscoldouthere well I am saving and overpaying and I don't need to move asap. It took us 3 years to move to our first flat, and we have only been in our flat for 2 years. I am just looking at all our options now so that I can plan our next move/know how much I need. I am 29, DH is 31 so I guess I have a few more years until it becomes a matter of urgency to conceive.

If I can move now, great. If its ideal for me to wait until I have more money, then I would rather do that if it means that its the right/most optimal decision in the long run. Of course a £1.4 million 4 bed house + childcare expenses is not on the cards!

@shenanigans5 out of interest, which zone did you live in. Would you say that zone 4-6 is doable without a car? I have friends in zone 4 without cars but they are single people generally. Equally, I have single friends in Coventry/Barrow in Furness without cars so I don't think singles are a good gauge!

I lived in 4 different areas in zones 1, 2 and 3.

We did have a car when we lived in zone 3 and had a child but mainly used public transport or walked everywhere to be honest. The odd longer journey to visit family we used the car.

But I always lived very close to a tube or overground station.

Sorry I didn’t answer your question! I honestly don’t know if you could manage without a car in 4-6. I think it’d depend on how handy everything is that you need with kids- childcare, healthcare, essential shops- pharmacy etc. Life is much less predictable with children and it’s harder/more stressful. Having a car or living very close to very reliable and frequent transport would be very important for me.
(And I also love an Uber but they don’t come with child car seats unfortunately ).

@shenanigans5 I thought you could buy one of those integrated travel systems child car seats like the yo-yo and then detach from the pram.

I live in zone 3 within 0.7 miles of the tube and there are many buses. I do find it strange that everyone presents commuter towns as an affordable option without the disclaimer 'needs 2 cars'. I mean it's a cost exceeding £3k per annum so much higher than council tax or even service charges (for a lot of flats) or heating. Let alone 2 cars. I suppose if you need the car anyway for work it makes no difference but not everyone is like that. DH and I work in central London so we definitely don't need it for work.

We probably don’t need two cars- more of a preference as we have two kids on different schedules. And I’d never describe St Albans as the cheaper alternative as it’s more expensive than where we last lived in London. But I get what you mean.

In terms of the travel systems- the infant size car seats don’t last kids long at all. I think both of mine went into the next stage up at 8 months or so and it isn’t possible to lug those ones in and out of an Uber and faff about for 20 minutes trying to remember how to fit it in different types of cars. Even the infant ones are a total faff to move in and out of taxis in my experience.

I’d consider 0.7 miles a bit too far for comfort for me but if you’re used to it I’m sure it’d be fine. You’re really motivated to live car-less which id imagine is really helpful in making the most of it.

We had a 3 bed flat with twins in London - OMG how I envied those people with safe outside space in their back garden - where the kids could play without being watched like a hawk. We were able to move to a 4-bed house near St Albans for the same price as our London flat. FWIW I don't know anyone without a car. Schooling is competitive but it doesn't really affect you if you keep a level head. Lots of people move from London and generally, these are the people you will gravitate towards anyway. I'd go for a terrace off Hatfield Road near the station - very buzzy.

@Glasspen you are probably from zone 2 right. Yes the flats in zone 1/2 convert quite easily to houses in the Home Counties. We have a communal garden in our flat and the kids all play together. I am hoping for a similar set up for our next flat.

How did the space work out for you in a 3 bed flat with twins. Do you think you would have managed longer with one child? Of course I realize it depends a lot on the floorplan!

Honestly though I have no chance of persuading DH if the house in Hatfield Road is the same price as the 3 bed flat in Muswell Hill or East Finchley. He may only agree if it really is much cheaper (adding in the season ticket costs) so that gives us security and looking at the prices, it probably isn't .

Based on my calculations, the cost of a car and 2 season tickets from St Albans to London is equivalent of an extra £190k on your mortgage or £810 per month on 2.05% interest rate per month.

www.nerdwallet.com/uk/personal-finance/cost-of-car-ownership/ it costs an average of £3406.80 a year to run a car in the UK or £283 per month.

St Albans to London Season ticket with one partner going to Canary Wharf- £387+459=£846

Zone 3 to Zone 1- £167

(£846+283)- (167*2)=£795

Basically a budget of 500k in st Albans is a budget of £690k in London.

I think we were Zone 3. I was the one who didn't want a house our flat was really big but with2 children I seriously I just craved the freedom of allowing my kids to play unsupervised - watching them make witches brews with blossoms and dirt, lying in the grass surrounded by flowers they have pulled off the bushes, making snowmen, climbing frames, dens - I can't explain the joy it gave me. The area we live in is amazing for kids - for dh and I not so much we prefer the London playground but we put our needs to the side for later and I've made some pretty amazing friends here so we probably won't move afterall - priorities change.

If you would choose a Jewish School I think there is one in Radlett which is the next stop on the train to St Albans.

@Glasspen interesting. But if what you wanted was a garden in zone 3, there are a lot of maisonettes with gardens which I am sure you would have been able to afford..some of the gardens are quite large, the gardens in St Alban's didn't seem particularly large at least near the station.

I was living in SW19 - not many big houses with a garden on our budget - a small terrace yes but not a 4 bed detached house with parking. We all chose different things but we often have to compromise- we certainly did but no regrets. Good luck with your decision.

@Exhausteddog the Jewish school is in Borehamwood or as many Jews call it 'Boringwood'.

Yes a lot of young religious Jews move there because it is cheaper than Hendon and Finchley and Golders Green. But it is not particularly nice, a lady on Mumsnet told me that the local population are not very happy that the house prices have gone up by a lot since it became a Jewish hub and they don't like that the kosher shops are expensive (tell me about it). I think it's ok for religious Jews as they mainly interact with each other, go exclusively to Jewish schools, they only care about synagogues and whether there are kosher shops/mikveh/other young families that are of similar ethos. My MIL says they are quite practical minded when I asked her why Jews don't pick somewhere picturesque to settle like the Chilterns or Guildford! Instead they pick Borehamwood and Hatfield!

Radlett is 30% Jewish but it is more expensive than St Albans and mainly has large houses or fancy apartments for downsizers. It is more of a village. It has very few small houses. It has no secondary schools, the kids go private or travel to other schools, DH has a pet hate of radlett cos all the bullies in his secondary school apparently lived there! (Irrational, I know).

Used to live round the corner to that flat linked in original post. I lived in a 3 bed flat in Chime Square. This was a flat share in my late twenties though but I would have loved to have owned that flat for myself. The town centre on your doorstep and 10 minute walk to the station for the 20 minute train to London. It's a great spot and the town is so much nicer than the grotty places I looked at in north London.

As said because it's outside zone 6 the cost of commuting tends to grate after a while though.

Just jumping on to say I live in St Albans and love it. The train is expensive but commuting 5 days a week is a thing of the past. I can’t comment on the bus system but I would say St Albans has an excellent network of bike lanes and shared paths. It can cut your commute time to the station or town in half.

Also there’s not just Verulamium in terms of accessible green space - you’ve got Clarence Park, Highfield and Heartwood to name a few.

Good luck with you move, I love St Albans and wouldn’t move back to London