Would you max budget on a doer upper as a longterm project?

[ColdAsMice]

We've seen an amazing property, the type we could never in a million years afford if it was in good condition. It's huge, period so lots of character and in a great location too. But it's at the top end of our budget and it's in major need of modernisation.

It isn't derelict...it's currently lived in by an elderly couple and habitable. But there are degrees of habitable, aren't there. As in - it has water and electrics and some sort of heating system, but all ancient. The decor is vile, but that's the least of my concerns. Structurally it seems pretty sound except for some exterior plasterwork cracking. Windows etc are all in place although it's old single glazing. Massively dated bathroom and kitchen suites but usable.

We would have no money to do any work to it en masse so it would have to be dribs and drabs over time, as money came in. But its the only way we could ever possibly afford a house like this, and we'd never need to move from it once complete (if it ever was complete!)

Good investment or really stupid idea?

I wouldn't. I would look for a smaller project instead.

Whether it's right for you OP depends on who you are, and who your DP is, and what your DC are like. So I'd never say 'Yes' or 'No' - as you can see from this thread, some people have lived in building sites for years and loved it, and some people wouldn't consider it because they know they'd hate it.

My experience, for what it's worth, having bought a 2 bed terraced 1890s house with a dodgy loft conversion, which was rented out, so in theory perfectly habitable, is as follows:

• we bought it for over 10% less than it was initially marketed - and that was our banks mortgage valuation figure as well
• we had £15k in cash after purchase - that went in six months on new bathroom, boiler, and two urgent windows
• next spend was a further £5k on windows - the ones that weren't actually letting in water, but were letting in (and out) everything else
• next was £7k on the roof - just the main roof - the kitchen/bathroom extension needs doing next, and the roofers were shit, and it took three months instead of three weeks, and we had a flood due to them taking off the tiles and not covering up just before a (very obvious) night of rain, and they misplaced the guttering so when it rains hard it's like a horse is taking a slash off the roof
• next (coming up next week - hurrah!) is £5k on relevelling the bay, reflooring and insulating the lounge, a new consumer unit and adding a couple of sockets

In between all this spending, we've also done a lot of DIY, including all the painting, sanding and varnishing the floors throughout (got 80% through the lounge and realised the boards were too full of woodworm and holes to make it worth continuing), plastering small bits, digging out and constructing a small channel drain, bagging up 6 bags of soot from the bottom of a very damp chimney, fillering and sanding the render out back (noticeable lack of water indoors afterwards - result!), fitting skirting board and architrave, and (the only one I really enjoyed) peeling layers of crap off a couple of corbals. It's not an impressive list, but my point is that we're not the types who get the decorators in if things aren't perfect.

For the future - we need a new front door, and new windows in the loft. We really should get new loft insulation and plasterboarding and skimming, and sorting out the (damp and asbestos filled) lean to. We want built in bookcases, a built in wardrobe in our bedroom, understairs storage, and a tiny kitchen extension.

We're two and a half years in. It's been tough, and I have regularly wanted to burn the place down and collect on the insurance. We're in our mid forties, and both have very busy jobs. And it quite often feels like we're wasting our lives, on something that is, after all, just a reasonably (we're getting there!) watertight and weather proof box.

Still, we're all different.

Well, no. Maxing out is not a good idea. I bought a fixer upper a year ago with a healthy renovation budget and a 4 months window to get it done without living there at the same time. There's STILL lots to do - some things weren't done to a good standard, some I haven't got round to (like the horrendous backyard) and now I do improvements one tiny bit at a time. It's bearable, but doing the whole thing in dribs and drabs like you're planning to - no, I'd not survive it, and if I had a partner, I'd kill him in the process.

@ Bustpipes I appreciated your post, especially it's dry humour, and you have my every sympathy, as a fellow-doer-upper.

PigletJohn's post sums it up exactly too, in fewer words than me.

Another aspect my DH mentioned when I was discussing it with him to see if I'd been a bit too negative was this- if you do stuff yourself, you need a lot of kit, which we've assembled over the last 35 years. When I asked how much he thought the tools we have used for the kitchen would cost new, he thought for a bit and said 'a few thousands'.
Seemed like a lot, but when I thought about it, what with ordinary and SDS hammer drills (even then we had to hire a more powerful one to cut the cooker hood vent though), bits, jigsaw, multitool, Dremmel, mitre saw, blades etc. for all those, hand saws (various), sanders (various sorts), plane, circular saw, all my decorating tools (decent ones cost a fair bit) router and bits, angle grinder, bricklaying tools, spirit levels (various lengths), clamps, workmate, a toolbox box of hand tools, power screwdriver, it all mounts up. Some you can do without if you don't mind it being harder work, or doing a poorer job. (But it's false economy buying cheap power tools.)

In your financial position, absolutely no way. I am doing a big renovation currently, funded by the profit of our two previous renovations. I have burned through £40k+ on windows, electrics, boiler, various mains supply/drainage issues, minor roof works alone. This is without even touching anything structural or cosmetic. I expect to be in the region of £130k by the end of it all, mid-range finish (though I know lots of the tricks/suppliers to make it appear high end now!) This is for a 250ish sqm Victorian detached property. If there are any nasty surprises, could easily end up north of there.

Do not underestimate running costs on these big old beautiful houses either, especially if you cannot afford to do windows etc immediately.

Also do not underestimate the stress of living in a building site with children. And the children themselves, no matter the age, will hugely reduce your capacity to do work yourself.

I’m sorry to say but it sounds like you are being at best idealistic and at worst naive. Don’t do it unless you know you can afford it.

Thanks BlueMongoose.

And 'Solidarity!' - we also have multiple cutting and sanding tools.

If you love the house (even with the imperfections) and can afford to do it (even if slowly) then do it. We bought similar two years ago. It's been amazing to have the space and we all love the house. We did have to live with every single window being broken for a year as we didn't manage to get them refitted prior to lockdown. Kids parties are amazing though - just send them off to play hide and seek with the knowledge that they can't make anything worse than it already is!

The dreamer me says yes absolutely. The realistic says no.

A full rewire alone could be £10k. Same as plumbing as both will need to be ripped out fully. Windows could be at least £15k.

If you had surplus cash every month and do a payday renovation (love that term @bravotango!) then you might have a chance with a smaller project.

While it could be amazing, that won't happen for years and the appeal will wear off. Money worries because of unexpected bills will take the shine off.

You also run the risk of doing major work during their most important school years

It sounds like you may need one more house move before getting your forever house within your budget?
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I can see why it’s really tempting, but it is a a big risk. We maxed our mortgage to buy a doer upper, but we have around £1000 a month to spend on it, and 4 months worth of living expenses in savings in case of an emergency situation.

We did it and I have loved pretty much every second. We have done a lot of DIY previously and could afford a bit more than you per year renovation budget, Like £10,000. The main reason for us finally deciding to go for it was that we knew we would hugely regret it if we didn't.we have now been in 3 years and have done about half the house up.

We nearly had this sort of thing. A property came along in our preferred area, a complete do-er upper but again, not awful in terms of windows/electrics/plumbing etc. It was advertised as a 3-bed but the old guy living there had knocked through to create 1 huge bedroom, so it was really a 2-bed.

There were 23 viewings over the weekend. We loved it, made an offer 2% above asking. It went to best and final and we upped our offer to 6% above asking. It went for nearly 10% above asking - on a house over half a million this certainly isn't pennies. We didn't match that and were gutted as we could see ourselves happy there and we could have done a lot with it, but we just didn't want the hassle of going up and up in price whilst that would eat into our renovation budget. Also, we knew that to make it what we wanted, we would easily hit the ceiling price of the road. This isn't such a big deal if you think it's your forever home, but you never know what might happen...

Anyway, it was the one that got away but onwards and upwards!

Further to my previous post, I became curious about how much we had spent on our (mainly DIY) renovation since 2019 as hadn't really kept records of spending , only what was budgeted based on month to month income.
Over £20k! To be fair that's a few windows, full rewire, new boiler and radiators throughout, redecoration and carpeting/flooring of most (not all!) rooms and work to the garden. Still ... it's expensive.

I’m a serial renovator - I would never buy a done-up house.

So please trust me when I say you need to walk away from this one.

You should never, ever buy a project at the top of your budget. You buy way below what you can afford, and then you spend savings or equity on the reno. Money you already have, not money you may earn in the future.

I'm a bit late to this but we did a similar thing three and a half years ago with little money to do it up.
It's very draining, we're almost there inside now, but if we wanted we could just keep going - new roof, new paving, new drive, render, guttering etc, it's just never ending.

I want to sell in a couple of years and I'd never buy another like this unless I had a lot of money to do it all - and you need more than you think, I was so naive!

Thanks all, it seems pretty much unanimous! We are indeed walking away even though it will be an amazing house for somebody. It has rising damp on a few of the downstairs rooms and that just isn't livable, plus the increase in taxes etc at the mo anyway...bad timing I guess. Thank you for the advice.

@ColdAsMice

Thanks all, it seems pretty much unanimous! We are indeed walking away even though it will be an amazing house for somebody. It has rising damp on a few of the downstairs rooms and that just isn't livable, plus the increase in taxes etc at the mo anyway...bad timing I guess. Thank you for the advice.

Good call. There’ll be another house out there for you. In the meantime, congratulate yourself on not sitting (as I am) in a freezing temporary kitchen constructed of planks and bricks, sneezing uncontrollably from plaster dust drifting in from another room!

Good decision OP. We're part way through a full refurbishment that someone else is doing for us and it's very stressful and ridiculously expensive!! I couldn't imagine doing it piecemeal over a long time. Really unsettling and extremely messy.

Wishing you good luck with your house search!!

We had the chance of buying an old house which needed lots of work doing, it was up for 315 but similar houses in gc were about 500k which was over our max budget of 400.

I loved the house and we offered 285 initially which was accepted. Had a full survey done and literally everything needed doing - it had subsidence, damp, rotten floorboards and joists, needed rewiring, new windows, roof and chimney, heating, plus had a rat infestation (yuk)
We pulled out and bought a boring modern house .

The old house ended up going for 240k and whoever bought it 2 years ago must have ran out of money because it’s still a wreck. I still secretly wish we’d bought it though.

It’s tough but try to be practical. If you do decide to go for it, ensure you get a full structural survey.

Good decision OP, spend your money on making fantastic memories instead.

I wish I'd managed to persuade my late husband not to buy ours.

I had to sell our family home last year for peanuts, I just didn't have the money to maintain it and everything we'd done in the beginning needed redoing. The horrible developer that bought it has obviously run out of money, eighteen months on he's still not done the roof or the windows and the big storms are coming. As it's listed it is a criminal offence to allow it to fall into disrepair and it could be confiscated.

I was going to say absolutely do it! We just did and so pleased we did - even though I just found out I am pregnant, we are sleeping in a garage and we have 6 months to sort it all out!

But with 5k a year max - absolutely not!

Ours is a 2000ft 3 bed. When you put in new heating and electrics, the whole house gets ripped to shreds. Walls, ceilings, floorboards. Everything needs re-skimming at a minimum.

We have a budget of 90k starting budget and its going to be tight - and thats with no structural or roof issues. We will have to prioritise windows on a room by room basis.

@ColdAsMice

Thanks all, it seems pretty much unanimous! We are indeed walking away even though it will be an amazing house for somebody. It has rising damp on a few of the downstairs rooms and that just isn't livable, plus the increase in taxes etc at the mo anyway...bad timing I guess. Thank you for the advice.

I think you're wise. ref PigletJohn's post, on ours, I've only just finished work for the day. I was still undercoating this time yesterday. If I had to check kids were doing their homework and do all that domestic stuff you youngsters have to do as well as a full time job I have no idea how I could ever be doing this.... Tax is a good point- if it's huge, so will the council tax be, and the water rates unless you get a meter in and are frugal with water. Rising damp usually isn't- it's usually leaks from roof, gutters or drains, and/or condensation from inside, but it still needs dealing with, which, though often incremental and not costing a huge amount, still takes time and money. Maybe go for a smaller house next that is still a doer-upper but needs less doing to it, most of it cosmetic and none of it structural or urgent, and break yourselves in a bit. Then, when you have learned a lot doing it, know more about what to look for when buying, and have hopefully made a profit and maybe saved up a bit of a contingency, trade up later to a larger project (provided you have enjoyed it).

If you buy something smaller you will have a bit of a financial cushion for emergencies too. That keeps worry down to a lower level, which is more important than people think it is to your health and wellbeing.

Good luck, and I hope you find something suitable. Keep us posted, and you can always ask for help here if you get stuck with DIY.
Maybe when the kids are grown up it will be time for The Big One.

Just going to read these comments as I’m in a very similar dilemma at the moment. Leave our perfectly nice house that needs no work done to it and move to a bungalow of similar condition to the one you’ve described. Only thing it has extra is double glazing but the heating is oil 🙄 The major benefit is the absolutely humongous garden and it’s in almost the absolute dream spot I’d want to stay in our town. But we really would be skint trying to do it up bit by bit and we have a baby who would need to live in this building site with us.

My head says take the sensible option and don’t consider it but my heart says take the risk. I’ve heard so much sad news recently and I just think if I was lying on my death bed telling my grandkids about my life would I rather we had achieved our dream home and lived there forever or say I played it safe and stayed in a ‘nice’ house?! Life is meant to be one adventure after another.. go for it 😉

Awww, what?! Everyone’s saying no! Where’s their sense of adventure? 😂🙈

I think you made a good call. I've walked away from 2 beautiful Victorian renos, one 13 years ago and one last summer. I'm doing another reno with a few structural changes and 40k down, lots of DIY and it's still not finished. Even when you find bargains and cheap good trades, costs really accumulate.

@sarah13xx

Awww, what?! Everyone’s saying no! Where’s their sense of adventure? 😂🙈

I think the point to take away from this thread is not that people are being negative, but that they are being practical. Even people who have experience of renovations- in fact, particularly those who have, and even those who in general would say it was a good idea, are saying that embarking on one with zero budget to do it with is not a great idea.

All doer-uppers are a risk. They wouldn't be cheaper if they weren't. And sometimes even high-risk ones pay off. But it's all about assessing and managing risk- and attempting it with no budget at all bar possible bonuses, let alone a budget for contingencies, and next to no experience, is a very high risk strategy.