Extension and loft conversion - wait and see or rethink plans?

[PermanentlyDizzy]

We are finally, after almost 20 years in this house, in a position to do the work we have always wanted to. Sod’s Law re timing, means that the work we have spent years thinking through and hoped to have done is now almost definitely going to be too expensive, thanks to all the current problems with builders and supplies, etc. We spent years putting a lot of thought into how things could work and what we could afford to do and now it’s all up in the air.

We’re early on in the process anyway - just approaching architects - but can’t decide if we should just scale everything right back and not pay for plans for something that, if things don’t settle on the building works front, we may never afford - or may have to wait years to be able to release enough equity to afford.

We definitely need an extra bedroom and bigger kitchen. We currently have a downstairs bathroom and the plan was to do a two-storey extension and loft conversion, retain a downstairs shower room, install a bathroom upstairs and hopefully, if feasible, fit an en-suite into the loft-conversion. To do the loft/stairs and first-floor bathroom we will lose a first-floor bedroom, hence the need for the two-storey rear extension as well, to replace the loss of that room. That extension would also significantly improve the size of our kitchen/diner and essentially free up the current kitchen area to become a second reception room.

The absolute minimum we need is an extra bedroom (disabled ds who needs to stop sharing with his sibling) and ideally a bigger/improved kitchen. We can manage with one downstairs bathroom, but it is a pain with two adults and three teen dcs. (We have two disabled dcs and are expecting to have them at home indefinitely, hence the need for an extra bedroom to give everyone their own space.)

Option 1 - Go ahead, get plans drawn up for the two storey extension, plus loft conversion and see if things have settled down once we’re through the planning stage. (I’m thinking this is likely to be 2023 anyway.)

Option 2 - Staged approach? A ground floor rear extension to provide a stop-gap bedroom for ds, plus a small extension to the kitchen and retain the ground floor bathroom. With one eye to the future, plan to have footings/foundations of the extension made suitable for a potential second floor sometime in the future. So we still have the possibility of option 1 at some point, incorporating ds’ new ground-floor bedroom as the new kitchen and shifting him upstairs into the first-floor extension.

Moving isn’t an option for multiple reasons I won’t bore you with, so we need to decide how best to improve our living space in the house we have and whether to do it in stages or just completely rethink/downsize the whole plan and live with whatever we can afford, which will still be better than what we have now.

Fwiw, we aren’t likely to move on and dh and I see this as our forever house. I jointly inherited the property with a sibling, so have effectively only paid half of the value for it, leaving us with 50% equity to do the works. The staged option won’t increase the value or saleability of the property, but will make it much easier for us to live in. The initial/dream plan would significantly increase the value and saleability (it is essentially the cheapest house in an expensive area at the moment) so any investment in building works would provide a return above the amount of equity released - not that we ever plan to sell.

I have been going round in circles trying to work out the best way forward. Do we wait and see what happens with the building works situation and hope we can implement option 1 in 2023 or do you think the situation is unlikely to improve that much, so we are better off just doing what we can to make living here more comfortable?

If we had been able to do it a couple of years back there wouldn’t have been a question. We could have afforded option 1 via releasing equity and would have not only improved our living situation, but also significantly increased the value and saleability of the house - win/win.

I am in a very similar situation and am also worrying about costs. We are in a bungalow. My plan is to stage it, so get the the back extension and new kitchen done, set up the roof so it meets building regs for an upstairs room and en-suite up there but leave it as a shell. Then when more money is available, we can put in the staircase and roof lights etc and make it habitable space.

Just the same as you, we've lived here 20 years plus and it needs a big refurb. We've never had the money to tackle it until now.

Hi OP, I think the missing info in your post is financial - how much have you saved for the works, what the cost has increased to now, and how you can cover the difference.

Then what do you save by going for the staged approach and what would the cost be to 'finish the job' in future, and where would that money come from?

We are in moderately significant credit card debt at the moment after pushing ahead with an extension and whole-house refurb last year. Our overspend was frightening! It was a classic case of slightly optimistic project manager giving low figures, but exacerbated hugely by lockdown delays, material scarcity and price jumps. But, we are now living in a beautiful house and enjoying every minute, with a payment plan in place to get rid of the debt in about 18 months - I've gone back to work slightly earlier than planned after mat leave to contribute to this.

I didn't have a crystal ball when we started so our over-spend wasn't expected, but from my perspective now I'm glad we are enjoying the house with a manageable debt-repayment plan, rather than still saving and waiting in the house as it was.

Obviously everyone's different, but this is how I feel!

My best advice is to find the most experienced, recommended local contractor you can, wait for them to be ready, and then go for it :) Life is short and it's so nice to enjoy it with a house that works for your family!

@CrotchetyQuaver It is worrying isn’t it. We may be able to do it, but there seems little consensus on prices at the moment and I keep reading that architects are notorious for underestimating the cost of builds based on their plans.

I would bite the bullet and go for option 1. Who knows what's around the corner? Likely more price increases by the time you get to finish with Option 2 and having to find builders to complete somebody else's work.

Option 2 with "sometime in the future" will be painful having half finished work. There's never a perfect time as life will get in the way.

Option 1 may infact work out cheaper in the long run as all trades will be finishing in one go, rather than having to return at a later date and undo some of the work to continue?

Yes, architects always underestimate the costs. I think they work on a basic £2-2.5k per square metre for literally the basic shell to get it watertight but everything else is ontop which is where the costs add up!

@WoolyMammoth55, the plan was to release equity for the build as, with option 1, the increase in value would still leave us with significant equity after the build and we planned, ultimately, to remortgage to benefit from that.

Via lots of reading up and using build calculators, we had worked out that we had enough, including a decent contingency/overspend amount. We also have some savings/cash available for overspend purposes, but the market seems so volatile at the moment, I am concerned that the build would take up all the equity we release, leaving us nothing for overspend.

How on earth do you work out the figures when the prices keep going up and you know your build is months/a year away? I keep reading that architects have no idea and are consistently under-estimating build costs. I don’t want to over-commit, but maybe I am being too cautious, I honestly don’t know anymore.

We have never had any money until recently and I have to admit, the idea of overspending beyond what we can afford and getting into debt (I mean credit cards/loans, not mortgage) is probably what’s making me hesitant and wondering if we need to scale back or wait.

If I base calculations on 2,250/m2 based on a mid-range build, it seems doable, but I am worried those sorts of calculations are no longer reliable, due to the volatility of the building/renovation sector at the moment. We’re not planning anything fancy, no huge folding/sliding doors, posh windows or expensive design features, we just want a simple build, that gives us the space we need to live in our home more comfortably. We’re willing to go with basic kitchen/bathroom fittings for the time being as well to keep costs down. The loft conversion would be a relatively simple dormer, but we would be lowering the ceilings in two first-floor rooms to accommodate the necessary roof-height, which increases the cost. Oh and we have to factor in rental costs as well, as we won’t be able to live here while the work is done.

Just been reading a few trade websites and articles and chatting with dh again and he thinks we should go ahead and have the plans drawn up for option 1, then go from there. There seems to be ‘hesitant’ optimism that things will have settled down by the end of 2022 and that, while costs will be higher than pre Brexit/pandemic, they will be more realistic. In which case, if we plan to get the work done in 2023, maybe I am panicking unnecessarily.

We’re about to start on a big building project compromising of a ground floor extension and loft conversion and we’ve already been stung by hefty price increases as a result of delaying by 6 months due to the arrival of DC2. We need the space, can raise the funds and plan to stay in the house long term so don’t want to delay any longer. We’ve had to downscale some things mainly the budget for finishing the kitchen and new bathroom but it’ll still be lovely when done (or so I keep telling myself). Like you we can’t live through the work and one upside is that we are spending less than we had originally budgeted for rent because there’s much less rental demand where we are. I’d at least get the plans drawn up for option 1, just ensure you speak to local builders to get quotes and not just to take the architects word for it- they are notorious for underestimating!

@MydogWillow I think I am leaning that way. Just typing this thread has helped sort my head out a bit. The whole idea was to get the extension and loft conversion done at the same time, to keep costs down. It would also mean we could move out for the duration, rather than living with the building works. We have identified a decent rental just up the road that does short-term lets and are praying it will be available when we need it!

We have the money set aside for the kitchen we want (free standing and built to order) and our bathroom fittings are good quality, so we plan to re-use those and that would reduce costs at least a little.

It is frustrating, because I really want to be able to give ds2 his own room. Having two teen ds’ with SN’s that conflict each other’s needs is very far from ideal and ds2 is mostly housebound, so could really do with his own space asap.

We were hoping ds1 might be going to uni and living in supported halls next year, but his situation and needs have changed, so that is not likely to happen for a few more years at least now, meaning we have to sort an extra bedroom however we can make it happen.

Any advice on how to identify decent local builders to quote? We don’t know anyone locally who has had significant building work done.

@LakeShoreD how did you make sure your architect was designing realistically and not over-estimating what you could have done for your budget. I keep reading about people telling their architect their budget, having plans drawn and then finding quotes are double what the architect has told them!

I am hoping, as we want a fairly basic build and aren’t bothered about a high-end finish or fancy features, that might help keep things more realistic.

Sorry I probably won’t be much help because our build is really really standard- side return extension and full loft conversion of a Victorian terrace in London. On our street alone we’ve got 2 identical projects in progress, 1 just finished and ours to start next week! I guess the best advice I could give you would be to find an architect who has previously done similar projects to what you’re planning. And get talking to anyone you know locally who has recently had building work done to ask if they’d recommend their tradespeople.

Thank you. That’s what we thought. We have whittled it down to three local architects to approach and are hoping they might have builders they’ve worked with before and can recommend.

I’ve been going through the planning portal and several people locally have had plans approved, but not actually done the work yet. We’re hoping one or two of those will have been started or even better, finished, so we can approach the homeowners to see if they would recommend their builders.

Ultimately you need to find an architect that shares the same vision as you and one that listens to your ideas. See who your neighbours use from the Planning portal.

Always go for recommendations for builders if you can or check if the architects put the prices out to tender to 3 or 4 builders they have worked with previously.

Regarding your loft conversion find a company that can quote for a conversion without lowering the ceilings below. I can't remember the system that's used but they can see if it's possible with your headroom. It will save a lot to not take the ceilings down.

Regarding your loft conversion find a company that can quote for a conversion without lowering the ceilings below. I can't remember the system that's used but they can see if it's possible with your headroom. It will save a lot to not take the ceilings down.
Yes absolutely! We discounted a couple of builders because they wanted to take down the bedroom ceiling below. The ones we went with won’t be doing this, we won’t have loads of headroom up there but we’ll meet the building regs requirement of 2.2 metres and it’s costing less money to leave the existing ceiling in situ.l

@MydogWillow Bizarrely, the ones nearest me on the planning portal all used architects hundreds of miles away. Very odd! I want someone with local knowledge and experience with our planning department.

We’ve looked at lots of architects. The three we’ve picked to approach have all got examples of previous projects which are similar to what we want in their portfolio and are local to us.

We’ve looked into the loft conversion and unfortunately we can’t do any of the options that avoid lowering ceilings. The only way we can get a reasonable height is to lower them, but as it will only be one bedroom and what will become a hallway and the new bathroom, it’s not a massive issue to lose the height on the first floor. It will add to the cost, but it’s not somewhere we can make as saving unfortunately.

Planning portal has been really useful for seeing what has been approved locally though. I was having trouble working out how far we could go out at the back to stay within the 45 degree rule (maths has never been my strong point ) so it was useful to see how far out the same type of house a few doors up got planning approved for.

We live in a row of about 10 similar houses, but most were converted to 2 beds in the 1970’s, to get a bathroom upstairs, at the same time reconfiguring the bedrooms to two doubles. Ours in the only one to still have three bedrooms, two doubles and a generous single. You have to lose a bedroom to do a loft conversion and/or move the bathroom upstairs, so unless you extend as well, there is no point. That, coupled with the unusual roof shape and needing the lower the ceilings, means no-one else has attempted a loft conversion. There are lots of dormer lofts along the road, just not in this style of house.

Don't split it. It will cost far more.

I think I would start doing the prep. Interview architects and see what price they put on the build and then add 30%!

When you decide on the architect, then get the plans drawn and make sure they include all the specific details including how many electrical sockets and positions. Ours at first just put a standard number in and a couple of radiators which was ridiculous for the size. This helps when you go to tender.

You need the actual building regulation drawings for the builders to tender. To accompany the plans you MUST MUST include a specification. Just quoting on plans is a recipe for runaway cost increases. The spec should be literally everything, ie if you sa t Velux windows then give the model and reference number which includes size or else you will get cheap crap. A builder will quote for foundations down to 1 metre. Include in the tender a requirement for them to give the price for each additional 10 cm of depth (ours went to 2 metres).

The spec is your opportunity to be clear what you want and control costs and a good spec will make a builder realise you know what you want and have a good way of controlling things....sorry I could go on. We had a good experience but because we had it all very tight

Agreed. Without a proper technical spec there will be no level playing field for pricing.

@MarieG10. Thank you. That’s very helpful.

That all sounds exactly like the way I would want to approach it. I am a bit of a control freak anyway, so would want all specs and costs nailed down before we agree to go ahead with anything. I understand things can go wrong and there will be some degree of change, but I would like as much control as possible to minimise nasty surprises.

I noticed the planning portal plans I looked at to estimate how far we would be allowed to go out at the back included all the technical specs, including sockets, type and location of plumbing, exterior finish, door/window specs etc.

Really useful tip about getting a price per 10cm depth for foundations as well.

@CrotchetyQuaver @WoolyMammoth55 @MydogWillow @LakeShoreD @MarieG10 Thank you.

This thread has really helped to sort my head out. Just had a chat with dh and agreed we will carry on working towards option 1.

I have an odd mix of dread and excitement about the whole thing!

Great! It will be fabulous I'm sure.

Brilliant! I was just popping on to suggest that the right architect can maybe come up with a better suggestion - you never know. That's something to explore in your architect interviews.

Just thinking, are you able to re-jig the way you use your current rooms so that DS2 has a separate room in the meantime?

@ACloseMatch The house has been in my family for 50 years. Every generation has gone over and over all the different configurations that might be possible countless times. I would be really impressed if an architect came up with something new. We know we have to be realistic about the limitations, as it’s a really awkward property and if we didn’t need the extra bedroom we would probably just do a kitchen extension and add a utility and extra toilet room to reduce the queues!

The house itself has a few things going for it:

• It’s cottagey in style, yet the bedrooms are great sizes.
• The kitchen is a good size, but has too many doorway and windows, plus an enormous chimney breast in it, so the space needs reworking.
• It has a big drive and a lovely sized south facing garden, backing onto fields, so it isn’t overlooked.
• It’s 30 seconds to the nearest dog walk in one direction and the other way it takes about 4 minutes to get to fields which are full of public footpaths. There are three other big parks within a 10-15 minute walk and you can walk directly into countryside within minutes. *It’s in a sought after area, less than two minutes walk from the village, which still has a post office, butchers, hairdresser, newsagents and other useful shops and a couple of cafe’s, but is also a 7 minute bus ride/20 minute walk into town, where there’s everything you need or a 10 minute walk, followed by a 20 minute train ride into the city.

We know we are lucky to have the opportunity to live here andknow we have to compromise somewhere, because it is a case of location over property. We’re all really fond of the house too, with it having been part of our family for so long. We’ve been very happy here, but it just isn’t working for our family anymore, due to our very specific needs.

@MydogWillow, there really isn’t any way we can do it. It wasn’t too bad when everyone was out at work/school/college in the day and it was just ds2 and me and home, but now we have ds1 home until we can get a placement for him and dh working from home half the week.

Dh has a desk in our bedroom, so there’s only the shared bedroom with his brother or the living room/downstairs with me for ds2. There’s a tv and bunk beds in dd’s room, but he hates it in there, as she is really messy and chaos/mess stresses him out. We tend to room shuffle as much as we can, so on the days dh is working away ds2 gets my and dh’s room, as I have to sleep on the sofa anyway to be with our old dog (oh yes, added complication at the moment is someone has to be in the living room 24/7 to be with our poorly old dog!). I also give him our room during the day over the weekends, so he can get some rest/peace. We bump along ok, but it’s a long way from ideal.

Seems a loooong way off, but I dream of the day it’s all done and we can all retreat to our respected spaces whenever we like… and we won’t have to queue for the loo!

Your home sounds so full of warmth and love and in a great location. Your project will be a lovely contribution for the next generation again.

It will be cheaper to do it in one and certainly to apply for planning that way. Are you planning to stay there while it is done? It sounds like it would affect most parts of your house so should be factored into cost comparisons.
If it's unaffordable, can you look at what could be done on a smaller scale later? So get the loft done structurally and with stairs but not necessarily fully plasterboarded or main plumbing in place for bathroom s but don't fit the suites.
Basically jobs that can be done by a single tradesman and don't require a main contractor to coordinate.
If you are pushing your budget to the max you need to decide where you make the compromises in advance should it go over. You may want granite worktops but you could fit out a bathroom with the difference between laminate so get laminate and consider them something you'll save for in five years.
You also need to bargain shop well in advance. Do you have a garage or outbuilding? If so get it cleared out way in advance do if you find budget tiles or an ex display bathroom, you can go for it. Once the plans are finalized make sure you know every detail and dimension so you can make quick decisions.

It sounds like a lovely location and house OP. I hope it all goes well for you. We had a very simple and standard kitchen extension three years ago and every day I am thankful for it and am pleased we were able to do it.