Side return extension when neighbour has a side bay window

[LitCrit]

Hello- very grateful for any help. We're considering buying an end of terrace and building a one story side return extension, preferably with a standard, rather than glass, roof. The neighbour (one of a pair of semi-detached) has a bay window at the side of their house. About a third of it looks directly onto the side wall of 'our' house, and the rest would look onto a new higher boundary wall, around 1.75m from the window, if we built the extension. It must already be pretty dark because there is an existing 6 ft boundary fence on the side return section.

Does anyone have similar experience or professional knowledge. Planning is sooo slow in our area and you have to pay £££ (and still wait!) for pre-planning advice!

Finally - has anyone built a 'courtyard' extension to get around a problem like this - ie building into the side return beyond the window, leaving a courtyard space - but extending a bit further to make up the shortfall?

Needs a picture!

Yes- sorry have dealt with planning for many years, but really can't picture what you mean! Diagram please

Presume these are Victorian houses?

All kitchens in Victorian houses of this type have a side window looking towards next door, prior to any side return extension. Doesn’t stop their neighbours doing a side return infill. I can’t see why the fact it is a bay window would change this.

Unless I have misunderstood the layout?

I like the courtyard style gaps, they can bring lots of light into your property. Might be more expensive perhaps?

Et voila

@minipie I think you've got the layout right, and yes you're right it's very common. I'm agonised because we won't be able to have a pre-planning consultation before we have to make a decision on the house. ..

@pragmaticwench Yes, I think probably more expensive dammit.

I think the mini courtyard sounds nice. You could even consider getting one that’s enclosed in glass, so a glass roof and side wall. Still lighter for the neighbours, but more practical for you. When I’ve seen them on TV they often contain a little indoor garden. Pretty and makes the middle of your house lighter.

The window might cause an issue if it is the only window serving a primary room (living room etc), not so much of it is to a kitchen, bathroom etc. Certainly worth making the point that you can have a boundary fence up to 2m in height which would cause a similar problem. Also, which direction the properties face with have an impact on how much impact a new addition will have on the amount of light to that window.

I don't think the courtyard idea would work. Your drawing seems to indicate that 'your' property already extends beyond the rear of the semi by some distance. I don't think an addition extending beyond that by any significant amount would be viewed favourably.

[quote LitCrit]@minipie I think you've got the layout right, and yes you're right it's very common. I'm agonised because we won't be able to have a pre-planning consultation before we have to make a decision on the house. ..[/quote]
I’m not an expert but think your proposed side return unfill would fall within permitted development (unless in a conservation area maybe) and so wouldn’t need planning anyway.

*infill

@seeline sorry that's my crap drawing - we are exactly level at the current time. We can't do permitted development (complicated by other factors inc conservation area) but my understanding is that 3m beyond the original footprint would fall under PD if we were eligible for PD, so hopefully would be looked on favourably if we put in a planning app?

@MangosteenSoda yes that would be lovely! Suspect v expensive to do well though.. and I wonder whether it would get round the problem - perhaps if the upper part of the party wall were glass ...?

There is a planning restriction re partial blocking of light of existing windows. I can't remember the details. We were planning an extension and our architect had to consider the light/blockage issue. From memory, I think it depends on whether there are other windows in the affected room and then there's a angle/degree (45 degrees perhaps) from the window where you can't block, hence why sometimes the neighbour doing the extension has to have a sloped roof or flat roof rather than being allowed to go double story.

Yes it is usually a 45 degree line from the middle of the main window of a habitable room. Your local council planning authority) will have a design guide or supplementary planning guide and will normally say what it considers to be a habitable room (eg not bathrooms but a kitchen diner). You will also need to be careful of facing windows although that's a bit more obvious. There is some wriggle room but often not much. What room does the bay serve and are there other main windows to it.

Ultimately though we, or even a planning agent or expert can give an opinion, but it will come down to the planning authority. You can't rely on getting permission.

[quote LitCrit]@seeline sorry that's my crap drawing - we are exactly level at the current time. We can't do permitted development (complicated by other factors inc conservation area) but my understanding is that 3m beyond the original footprint would fall under PD if we were eligible for PD, so hopefully would be looked on favourably if we put in a planning app?[/quote]
As the rear elevation is stepped, permitted development would only allow an extension of 3m out from each rear wall, not the furthest most wall. But yes, I assume the 3m would take it out beyond the troublesome window.

The 45 degree policy normally only relates to windows in front or rear elevations, not side elevations. Not all Councils use the policy anyway.

Is the issue that they might object as too close? Or that the windows would face each other?

If the former, under normal circumstances you could definitely do this under PD. Can't see why not under planning either, not sure how they could reasonably object.

If the latter, could you put your side window in a different place to theirs so they wouldn't overlook each other?

Personally not a fan of internal courtyards as waste of space and quite pointless - not sure it would ever be used. But some people like them!

Oh sorry just looked at drawing again - you don't have a side passage on your side? That might affect it then, ignore what I said!

I don't know about the planning regs, but my friend has a very similar Victorian terrace and they did a side return extension. There was already a 2m tall fence so their next door neighbour's side bay window was already fairly obscured.

OP's looks to be identical layout to my friend's house so the neighbour will still be getting light from the gap between the window and the boundary. House orientation might affect the amount of light though.

Thanks all - @Waspie, I think it's in shadow for most of the day.
I think it's a kitchen diner and annoyingly it looks like it's the only window other than a very small one which I forgot to put on the drawing, on the same wall towards the back of the building.
@seeline thank you - but just to be clear - we could in theory build 3m out beyond the furthest wall, across the full width, thus creating a courtyard of the side return?

Hmm - if you mean (hypothetically) as permitted development, I'm not sure

I don't think so. The Guidance states that 'An extension on a side wall that extends beyond a rear wall, but is not attached to a rear
wall will be subject to the restrictions that apply to rear walls as well as the restrictions on side walls', so I think that same guidance would apply to the situation you are describing.

For anyone interested the technical guidance on permitted development is [[https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/830643/190910_Tech_Guide_for_publishing.pdf here]]

Don't forget about a party wall agreement as will be within 3m of neighbours foundations x

No not PD unfortunately, Can;t do that for other reasons, has to be full planning permission
Sorry folks I'm really not explaining the 'courtyard' idea properly - edited drawing attached

Why don't they have a fence? It looks as though they can access your garden from your diagram?