Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Property/DIY

Join our Property forum for renovation, DIY, and house selling advice.

How should we play the negotiation following survey?

66 replies

ScaredOfNegotiation · 22/05/2021 15:27

We made an offer at the absolute top of our budget on a lovely house, thinking it needed little to no work. The building survey came back saying that the loft conversion is not actually a "habitable room" (despite being marketed as a bedroom), partially on the basis of not having all the proper fire safety measures in place (okay, that's fixable), but far more worryingly, because the floor has significant movement (joists not strong enough to support habitation etc.), and we would need to basically do a full re-conversion of the loft in order to make it usable as a bedroom.

The plot thickened yesterday as, due to an error by the vendor's seemingly incompetent solicitor, we found out that the EA had lied to us about a previous offer that had been accepted on the house. Basically, an offer had already been accepted, but that buyer's chain fell through, and so the vendor put it back on the market, which is when we viewed it and put in an offer. The EA had told us that the previous buyer had offered asking price. It turns out that actually they had actually offered 2% lower than asking price and had it accepted. We felt pressured by what the EA said (as the previous buyer was still interested, and the EA made it sound like there was a lot of other interest too), and so went in much nearer asking. We are cash buyers, so probably did not need to go in so high, as the vendor doesn't need the money for their move, and are clearly keen to move quickly.

What should be our strategy for negotiation? We want to ask for a reduction that will cover the cost of making the loft conversion habitable (as it was advertised), but I also want to mention how disappointed we are to have found out we were lied to (not their fault, but it affects how we feel about the purchase, given that we're really pushing at our limit — they should be angry at the EA/solicitor really). Clearly if they were willing to accept the previous lower offer, the house was overpriced, since the previous buyer must have given the highest offer (perhaps even the only one).

One final complicating factor is that I believe they had a competing offer at the same time as ours (though who knows anymore?), which was higher than ours. They went with ours for the cash-buyer convenience, so clearly that aspect does matter to them (also evidenced by the fact that they pulled out of the previous sale when the buyer's chain fell through, in order to get a move on), and I'm wondering if that will help us here.

Please help! I have a constant nervous sick feeling in my stomach because I have no idea how this is going to go, and I feel cross about the lies, the inconvenience of fixing the loft problem, and the fact that we seem to be overpaying regardless. We do really like the house, but we would have to draw the line somewhere, and I don't know where that somewhere should be.

OP posts:
WeAreTheHeroes · 25/05/2021 12:10

And he's lying about "the vast majority of houses" he sells. Most of us do get approval - we had to, when we did our loft in 1979. So unless it was done way before then it is illegal.

This is not true - the EA is not lying, he has just stated that work carried out in the past was carried out to the standards of the time and although it doesn't meet current standards/regs that doesn't make it wrong or illegal or uninhabitable, etc.

FurierTransform · 25/05/2021 12:32

Sorry OP but it doesn't sound like this is going to be the house for you.

One of the other buyers is probably not planning on doing any further structural work (bathroom etc) into the loft space, & therefore will have less concern of having to meet current regs & be willing to proceed based on the evidence presented -that it met the regulations at time of being built.

On the information provided so far I don't think you have a very strong negotiation position.

Bluntness100 · 25/05/2021 13:07

@ScaredOfNegotiation

Are you saying that the floor strength rules that applied then are the same as those that apply now? Are you sure? (Do you have any links to confirm this, as I've been a bit bamboozled by all the conflicting info out there.)
You need to speak to the surveyor again as I don’t think you’re clear on what’s being said

Firstly nothing done before current regulations come in complies. This is standard and not an issue. Properties are not updated as regulations change.

If it was signed off at the time it complied with the regulations at the time. As such no issue.

If the regulations habe changed, then it’s irrelevant. They are absolutely not required to keep changing their property with the regulations.

If there is an issue with the structural integrity the surveyor needs to explain this and you need to get a structural engineer in to Look. This is totally and utterly nothing to do with the regulations.

If you wish to change the use and put a bathroom in etc, and the floor needs strengthened for this, this is your issue and nothing to do with the sellers.

So the only issue you have here is is the floor structurally sound. Not does it comply to current regulations. If it is not sound then you need to get a structural engineer in to assess properly.

ScaredOfNegotiation · 25/05/2021 13:28

@Bluntness100 Is it not the case that Building Regulations require a particular floor strength because without it the floor may not be structurally sound? Surely the regulations exist for the purpose of safety? So I don't understand why you say the structural integrity has nothing to do with the regulations (unless I've misunderstood what you said).

To clarify on the bathroom front, I am not saying that we would need to strengthen the floor solely for the bathroom, if we were to put one in. I am saying that because the room is not up to current Building Regulation standards, if we wanted to make any alterations to the loft room, we would then be legally obliged to bring the whole thing up to current standards.

OP posts:
feimineach · 25/05/2021 13:33

So the only issue you have here is is the floor structurally sound. Not does it comply to current regulations. If it is not sound then you need to get a structural engineer in to assess properly.

I agree with this OP, but would add that it seems unlikely that the vendors would allow you to have structural engineers in, since that can be so disruptive. In a rising market they're more likely to look for new buyers who aren't bothered as they don't want to add a bathroom to the attic bedroom.

You need to decide if you want this property even if it turns out to be too expensive to get a bathroom in the attic - because you're not going to know for sure until after you've bought it.

I don't think there's a negotiation to be done on the price; it a legal attic bedroom.

pilates · 25/05/2021 13:44

Look for another property, do you want to buy a property that is not structurally sound? Get a structural engineer in and once he has priced for how much it will cost to put right, renegotiate the price or better still walk away. The seller needs to address this as it will only come up on a future purchasers survey.

ScaredOfNegotiation · 25/05/2021 14:10

@feimineach Is it still a legal attic bedroom even though it doesn't comply with current fire safety regulations? Or is it only the regulations at the time of conversion that matter for this too?

The surveyor has confused me, because he was saying it should only be used for light storage, cannot be classed as a "habitable room", and should not be marketed as a bedroom in any future sale. Was he just saying that on the assumption that there was no documentation confirming that it was built according to regulations at the time? Does the thing about not being able to market it as a bedroom go out of the window once there is some kind of documentation (even if it doesn't comply with modern regulations)?

OP posts:
MaximumVolume · 25/05/2021 14:17

Yes, that’s what PPs are saying. It has been legally stamped as a bedroom and remains one even though as a 40 year old conversion it wouldn’t be considered up-to-scratch if converted today.

The crucial point is whether there is a structural issue with the house - including the floor of the attic bedroom. If there’s an issue that could cause problems to the house as it currently is (things like movement or subsidence), you may be in a position to get a reduction.

If it’s the case that the issues purely have implications for changes you wish to make then it’s your decision to decide whether it’s a dealbreaker.

Bluntness100 · 25/05/2021 14:23

[quote ScaredOfNegotiation]**@Bluntness100* Is it not the case that Building Regulations require a particular floor strength because* without it the floor may not be structurally sound? Surely the regulations exist for the purpose of safety? So I don't understand why you say the structural integrity has nothing to do with the regulations (unless I've misunderstood what you said).

To clarify on the bathroom front, I am not saying that we would need to strengthen the floor solely for the bathroom, if we were to put one in. I am saying that because the room is not up to current Building Regulation standards, if we wanted to make any alterations to the loft room, we would then be legally obliged to bring the whole thing up to current standards.[/quote]
Yes you’ve misunderstood. It may be the way I wrote it

I am saying rhe current regulations are not relevant the only regulations relevant are the ones in place when the extension was done and if these were complied with at the time.

New regulations are not back dated. Home owners are not expected to continue to upgrade their properties as regulations change.

What is relevant is if the floor is not structurally sound or not.

It’s like putting a new electricity fuse board in. You comply with the current regulations. These regulations change often. You are not expected to change your fuse box every time they do. You’re not expected to change it prior to sale either. It simply needs to have been compliant at the time of installation. Like your extension.

You’re getting the three things mixed up, regulations at the time, now and structural issues.

Any new work carried out needs to be to the new regulations. Any existing work needs to comply with the regulations at the time of installation.

Think about it. I live in a 400 year old listed building. Very little complies with current regulations in terms of the build. We would need to knock the house down to do that.

So clearly the law is not to keep changing your property with every regulations change, it is to ensure it complies with the regulation in place at the time the work was done. Those are the only regulations that apply.

Any new work needs to comply with the regulations in place at the time, Ie now, but only for the work being carried out.

FurierTransform · 25/05/2021 15:20

[quote ScaredOfNegotiation]**@Bluntness100* Is it not the case that Building Regulations require a particular floor strength because* without it the floor may not be structurally sound? Surely the regulations exist for the purpose of safety? So I don't understand why you say the structural integrity has nothing to do with the regulations (unless I've misunderstood what you said).

To clarify on the bathroom front, I am not saying that we would need to strengthen the floor solely for the bathroom, if we were to put one in. I am saying that because the room is not up to current Building Regulation standards, if we wanted to make any alterations to the loft room, we would then be legally obliged to bring the whole thing up to current standards.[/quote]
I know it wasn't directed at me, but no - building regs are not all about safety. I think I replied in your previous thread, but they are often concerned with more human factors - how much floor bounce is felt as being 'acceptable 'etc.

Bluntness100 · 25/05/2021 16:08

Is it still a legal attic bedroom even though it doesn't comply with current fire safety regulations

Yes absolutely. Of course it is. It needs to comply with the regulations at the time and then it’s a legal bedroom for ever more, irrelevant of any regulation changes.

The only issue you have is is there structural issues with the floor.

ScaredOfNegotiation · 25/05/2021 17:03

Okay, I think there is still a point of confusion for me, regarding the following:

Any new work carried out needs to be to the new regulations. Any existing work needs to comply with the regulations at the time of installation.

What I've been told by the surveyor (and others I've spoken to about it) is that in order to do any new work in any part of the loft (such as a bathroom, taking up a relatively small area), the entire loft would need bringing up to current regulations. That seems different from what you've said above.

(Of course I understand that houses do not need to be constantly updated to comply with ever-changing regulations, but it is of relevance if I need to overhaul a previously compliant loft, in order to put in a bathroom.)

OP posts:
Clymene · 25/05/2021 17:12

@ScaredOfNegotiation

Okay, I think there is still a point of confusion for me, regarding the following:

Any new work carried out needs to be to the new regulations. Any existing work needs to comply with the regulations at the time of installation.

What I've been told by the surveyor (and others I've spoken to about it) is that in order to do any new work in any part of the loft (such as a bathroom, taking up a relatively small area), the entire loft would need bringing up to current regulations. That seems different from what you've said above.

(Of course I understand that houses do not need to be constantly updated to comply with ever-changing regulations, but it is of relevance if I need to overhaul a previously compliant loft, in order to put in a bathroom.)

Yes, because you are making structural changes. So they need to comply with current regs to get signed off. You will have to swap all the doors in the house for fire doors for example.
Bluntness100 · 25/05/2021 18:22

What I've been told by the surveyor (and others I've spoken to about it) is that in order to do any new work in any part of the loft (such as a bathroom, taking up a relatively small area), the entire loft would need bringing up to current regulations. That seems different from what you've said above

No it’s not different, it’s new work, so the whole thing would need to be signed off to current regulations.

Plus you’d want to do that right?

ScaredOfNegotiation · 25/05/2021 19:19

In the case of the bathroom, the "new work" would be the bathroom (i.e. an addition to a small part of the loft), so why would the entire loft floor then count as "new work", and need bringing up to building regulation standards? Would the loft floor not count as "existing work"?

Where is the line drawn? It doesn't seem to be the case that the entire house has to be brought up to modern standards if some loft work is done, but it seems it is necessary to bring the entire loft up to modern standards if a small part of the loft has some work done. What is it about the addition of a bathroom that makes it necessary to fix up the entire loft floor to modern standards?

OP posts:
Clymene · 25/05/2021 19:25

@ScaredOfNegotiation

In the case of the bathroom, the "new work" would be the bathroom (i.e. an addition to a small part of the loft), so why would the entire loft floor then count as "new work", and need bringing up to building regulation standards? Would the loft floor not count as "existing work"?

Where is the line drawn? It doesn't seem to be the case that the entire house has to be brought up to modern standards if some loft work is done, but it seems it is necessary to bring the entire loft up to modern standards if a small part of the loft has some work done. What is it about the addition of a bathroom that makes it necessary to fix up the entire loft floor to modern standards?

Because if impacts the entire space. So if the floor is not strong enough to bear the weigh of a full bathtub, you can't just strengthen part of it.

And once you want building regs to sign off on your bathroom, they're going to insist that the entire house meets current regs for loft conversions.

How exactly do you propose they do a little bit of it? Confused

New posts on this thread. Refresh page