How should we play the negotiation following survey?

[ScaredOfNegotiation]

We made an offer at the absolute top of our budget on a lovely house, thinking it needed little to no work. The building survey came back saying that the loft conversion is not actually a "habitable room" (despite being marketed as a bedroom), partially on the basis of not having all the proper fire safety measures in place (okay, that's fixable), but far more worryingly, because the floor has significant movement (joists not strong enough to support habitation etc.), and we would need to basically do a full re-conversion of the loft in order to make it usable as a bedroom.

The plot thickened yesterday as, due to an error by the vendor's seemingly incompetent solicitor, we found out that the EA had lied to us about a previous offer that had been accepted on the house. Basically, an offer had already been accepted, but that buyer's chain fell through, and so the vendor put it back on the market, which is when we viewed it and put in an offer. The EA had told us that the previous buyer had offered asking price. It turns out that actually they had actually offered 2% lower than asking price and had it accepted. We felt pressured by what the EA said (as the previous buyer was still interested, and the EA made it sound like there was a lot of other interest too), and so went in much nearer asking. We are cash buyers, so probably did not need to go in so high, as the vendor doesn't need the money for their move, and are clearly keen to move quickly.

What should be our strategy for negotiation? We want to ask for a reduction that will cover the cost of making the loft conversion habitable (as it was advertised), but I also want to mention how disappointed we are to have found out we were lied to (not their fault, but it affects how we feel about the purchase, given that we're really pushing at our limit — they should be angry at the EA/solicitor really). Clearly if they were willing to accept the previous lower offer, the house was overpriced, since the previous buyer must have given the highest offer (perhaps even the only one).

One final complicating factor is that I believe they had a competing offer at the same time as ours (though who knows anymore?), which was higher than ours. They went with ours for the cash-buyer convenience, so clearly that aspect does matter to them (also evidenced by the fact that they pulled out of the previous sale when the buyer's chain fell through, in order to get a move on), and I'm wondering if that will help us here.

Please help! I have a constant nervous sick feeling in my stomach because I have no idea how this is going to go, and I feel cross about the lies, the inconvenience of fixing the loft problem, and the fact that we seem to be overpaying regardless. We do really like the house, but we would have to draw the line somewhere, and I don't know where that somewhere should be.

We mentioned our concerns about the loft to our seller's EA when he called to "check in", and he of course tried to minimise our concerns ("the conversion happened X years ago, of course it's not going to be up to modern standards", and "the vast majority of houses I sell are in the same position", and "it's priced fairly for what it is, you'll have no trouble selling it in future, and remember there was another offer on it" etc.), and kept changing the subject.

Even though I know why he's doing this, I can't help second-guessing myself. Is it true that most sellers would advertise loft conversions not compliant with modern standards as bedrooms? And that most buyers would be totally okay with that? Is it okay for a loft conversion to be advertised as a bedroom if it was compliant when built, but is no longer compliant? I am so confused.

@ScaredOfNegotiation

We mentioned our concerns about the loft to our seller's EA when he called to "check in", and he of course tried to minimise our concerns ("the conversion happened X years ago, of course it's not going to be up to modern standards", and "the vast majority of houses I sell are in the same position", and "it's priced fairly for what it is, you'll have no trouble selling it in future, and remember there was another offer on it" etc.), and kept changing the subject.

Even though I know why he's doing this, I can't help second-guessing myself. Is it true that most sellers would advertise loft conversions not compliant with modern standards as bedrooms? And that most buyers would be totally okay with that? Is it okay for a loft conversion to be advertised as a bedroom if it was compliant when built, but is no longer compliant? I am so confused.

All the agent cares about is completing the sale, that is their prime motivation. He is looking after himself, you look after you.

I loathe crooked estate agents.

We're helping my daughter to buy a flat which is on sale at £40k above its current realistic market value (according to reputable local agents).
Today we were asked for a "best and final" offer when we are pretty sure that we are the only bidders who are in a position to proceed. We declined to bid as we've already bid what it is worth, though there is a little wiggle room if the agent could be bothered to negotiate properly with us, which he has not done thus far.
Thus they are now going ahead with a best and final offer with just one bidder. I think this is truly unethical and I doubt very much whether the other bidder knows that she is the only one. She may feel forced to up her bid when there is really no reason to do this.
We know that the vendor really wants to buy a house she has seen and that she has to show that she has a "proceedable" bidder by tomorrow morning. I suspect that the agent will force a higher bid out of the potential buyer for her flat and then lie to the other estate agent about the position of the potential buyer.

@ScaredOfNegotiation

We mentioned our concerns about the loft to our seller's EA when he called to "check in", and he of course tried to minimise our concerns ("the conversion happened X years ago, of course it's not going to be up to modern standards", and "the vast majority of houses I sell are in the same position", and "it's priced fairly for what it is, you'll have no trouble selling it in future, and remember there was another offer on it" etc.), and kept changing the subject.

Even though I know why he's doing this, I can't help second-guessing myself. Is it true that most sellers would advertise loft conversions not compliant with modern standards as bedrooms? And that most buyers would be totally okay with that? Is it okay for a loft conversion to be advertised as a bedroom if it was compliant when built, but is no longer compliant? I am so confused.

The loft conversion rules have been in place for many years now and if it was done illegally (i.e. without Building Regulations Approval) it is not a bedroom and should not be advertised as such. And he's lying about "the vast majority of houses" he sells. Most of us do get approval - we had to, when we did our loft in 1979. So unless it was done way before then it is illegal. Anybody needing a mortgage will have to have a valuation done and any competent surveyor will spot this problem.
Getting things put right is a very big job, you'll probably loose the bedroom ceilings below and you may need to put in enormous RSJ's to take the loads which are not properly supported. Also you don't know if they have cut corners in other ways, on the plumbing, the electrics or whatever.

I'd pull out unless the house was reduced to the price of a house with one less bedroom, at least.

And the reason they wanted cash buyers was because they hoped that there wouldn't be a decent survey done, and that they wouldn't need a mortgage valuation.

So how much did survey say house was worth in current state with loft not counted as a bedroom? That is what your mortgage company will offer on so tell them that is your new offer.

@CatAndHisKit

I don't think it's fair to compare with houses that have fewer bedrooms - obviously a loft conversion from scratch would cost a lot more than remedying the existing 'room' even if it's thousands. The full new conversion would be 20K plus. The onl wise thing to do is to base om the estimate for making chagnes and puttng it right - your surveyor should give you an idea rather than having a specialist - or bring a builder along as they don't normally charge / chrage a lort less for a quote than a specialist engineer would. You should feel confident though as every other buyer would negotiate based om this too. And they want to move quickly.

I don't think this is true, remedial work might cost almost as much - and the bedroom floor might well be uninhabitable whilst it was going on. Builders certainly wouldn't want to take on the job of putting right somebody else's rubbish work and it would be almost impossible to quote on as they don't know what they'd find when the went under the floor and above the ceiling (as it is likely there should be a RSJ up there.

@NewHouseNewMe

Fixing the joists could be a nightmare because they go into the gable/roof structure and are difficult to retrofit. You don't mention issues with the roof support but that would need checking - if there are insufficient RSJs in the roof, then you're doing a lot of work. It's like repeating the conversion as the roof will need to come off. Unless they were willing to reduce the cost significantly, I would walk away. They're then in the land of hoping someone buys without a full survey.

Yes, this is all true.

If loft conversion has a certificate issued at the time it was built stating it was compliant then that is acceptable. But with no certificate it should not be marketed as a bedroom. I had a loft conversion about 7 years ago and we had to have steel beams to carry more weight and fire alarms worked into mains electrics with battery back up. We also had roof raised about 8 inches as there has to be a certain amount of headroom including on new staircase.

It seems that in the mid-1990s the council wrote a letter retrospectively confirming that it complied with then-current regulations, but there is no other documentation available, and the surveyor was sure that it doesn't comply with current regulations.

When we looked at the house, the loft room was sold very heavily on the potential for a bathroom etc., and that was an attractive prospect for us. We factored into our offer the belief that we could put in a bathroom at a typical bathroom price. We were not expecting to have to do a loft conversion in order to put in a bathroom.

Even if regulations were adhered to when it was built, several decades ago, are we right to feel that the current state does not match what we were sold? We've spoken to the seller, who said "regulations change all the time. This is what you will get with any property that's more than a few years old. If you want to put in a bathroom, you strengthen the floor, everyone knows that", and then told us he had multiple other offers to fall back on, so to let him know what we want to do. He said we could send people in to check whatever we want, but it seemed quite clear that he was not planning to negotiate on that basis — it would just be for our own cost planning. I feel so deflated.

I'd want sight of that letter to know exactly what it states.

I've seen a copy of the letter from the mid-90s, and all it says is "the Council can confirm that the loft conversion does comply with all current building regulations". I believe the letter was sent in response to a request made around the time the current owners moved in. So the conversion predates the current owners. There is no other documentation regarding the loft conversion (and of course our surveyor says it does not comply with current regulations, so we're trying to work out what to do now).

There's your answer - it was fine at the time. That's all you need. There's something with the floor in there that needs looking at.

Lots of things don't comply with current regulations because regulations change every few years and there is no obligation to change what they have to make it meet new regulations. No overhauls everything in the home every time regulations change - unless something goes wrong or needs changing for some other reason.

So this is the information so far:

• The conversion apparently complied with regulations at the time it was built (~40 years ago), based on a letter from the council ~30 years ago. No other documentation is available. Our surveyor told us not to trust retrospective assurances like this, as apparently things were very lax then, and one could pretty much pay for a stamp of approval without having to do anything and without proper checks. I don't know if this is true, but I suppose either way, it technically has the stamp of approval for that time.

• It doesn't comply with current regulations, either for fire safety, or floor strength. So if we were to extend, or put in a bathroom (or make any other structural alterations), we would need to do a full re-conversion to bring the floor up to current standards (though there is already a staircase).

• The seller has given the impression of being unwilling to negotiate, and has said he has other offers to fall back on if we don't want the house (though we have good reason to believe most/all of them were lower). We don't know if he is just playing hardball (being a businessman, and knowing that we are nervous), but we're not sure if it's in our interest to test that, if we might still want to proceed.

Given this information, if it were going to be financially viable for you to bring the attic room up to current standards in the relatively near future (say, in a year or so), would you consider proceeding in my situation? Would the unwillingness of the seller to negotiate on any part of the survey put you off? The seller seems to think it would be very easy to replace us, and in this market I can believe they would find another buyer, as it is a nice house in a nice area (though I'm not sure he could get much more than our offer for it). I feel quite fed up to think there is no possibility of movement at all, but at the same time I don't want to let that irritation cloud my judgement.

You've now stated it doesn't comply with current regulations for floor strength. Where has this come from? What I've read in your previous posts is that the surveyor had said there had been some movement in the floor, which isn't the same as not meeting current regs for floor strength.

Look at it this way: the loft was converted about 40 years ago and this is some evidence of movement of the floor. 40 years is a long time. I don't think you have a prayer of renegotiating this. Either continue and accept you'll have remedial work to do should you want to put a bathroom up there or pull out.

Building regs do change all of the time. You can only comply with that regs of the era, you can't predict additional changes.

For me it wouldn't be about the compliance, it would be about the safety as standards change. If it's been regularly used as a bedroom for the last 30 years then the floor probably isn't going to fall through. That's what I'd be questioning the surveyor about.

And yes you would need to reinforce the floor to put a bathroom in as they are heavier than bedrooms. Plus you would need to make sure changes meet current regs. In the same way you'd need to make them meet current regs if the regs had changed in the last 12 months.

Think of the resale here. If you needed to sell (life event etc.) you'd have the same questions as you're now asking but possibly not in as hot a market.
So in a very hot market where you probably paying 1M+ if London, then think carefully.

@WeAreTheHeroes It was the surveyor who said it doesn't comply with current regulations. And "significant movement" was the phrase he used. We had a long chat with him about it, and he said that although it would be necessary to do invasive checks to be 100% certain of all the details, he is ~certain based on his checks that it is not in compliance with current floor strength regulations. (It's certainly not compliant with fire regulations.) We are concerned about safety in respect of the floor, as we were imagining it having quite heavy use.

I'm quite confused about what exactly the advice is overall. Some people say "walk away", but what is that based on? Does that advice no longer apply now that there's this letter from the 90s saying it complied with regulations at the time? (Regarding that letter, can it really be trusted when no checks were done, and there was no documentation?)

Would you expect other buyers to take issue with this too, or to be placated by the existence of that letter? Doesn't this issue arise in loads of houses, and people still buy them? Was it correctly marketed as a bedroom, given that it (supposedly) complied with regulations at the time of conversion?

I don't want to pay over the odds, but I suspect we're doing that anyway, given the market we're in. I'm wondering how big a deal we should consider this to be, given that we could well live there for 5-10 years, and it won't be too long before we can afford to make these renovations if we want. Obviously resale is a consideration, but I don't know if we're also at risk of making an unwise decision from a life-quality perspective by focusing solely on not overpaying (in a scenario where we are at the limit of our current budget, but we earn well enough for it not to be a big deal long-term).

The current building regs regime came into force in 1985 iirc.

When did the sellers buy the house?

@WeAreTheHeroes They bought it in the mid-90s.

Are you saying that the floor strength rules that applied then are the same as those that apply now? Are you sure? (Do you have any links to confirm this, as I've been a bit bamboozled by all the conflicting info out there.)

The fact that it doesn’t meet current building regs is irrelevant (given that it met requirements at the time). Think of all the very old cottages with low ceilings that can’t possibly meet current building regs. It’s a total red herring, forget that aspect.

BUT... what matters is if the loft conversion is in need of significant costly work given that survey has picked up on floor movement.

You could go back to vendors and tell them the survey has picked up that the floor is likely too weak to support the weight, so needs significant work to repair, see if they’ll negotiate. Or accept that house is already at top of your budget so you’re unlikely to get enough of a discount from vendors to make the remedial work affordable, and walk away.

Ok this is getting a bit confusing

The fact it doesn’t meet current regulations is totally irrelevant. No one contually updates a property as regulations change and regulations are not back dated, it’s totally unreasonable to expect that.

If there is a structural issue with the floor this needs to be addressed.

@ScaredOfNegotiation

Are you saying that the floor strength rules that applied then are the same as those that apply now? Are you sure? (Do you have any links to confirm this, as I've been a bit bamboozled by all the conflicting info out there.)

No - I've no idea. Just you hadn't mentioned regs relating to floor strength previously, just that there was evidence of movement.

You need to satisfy yourself you are happy to accept this loft conversion as it was done at the time which was perfectly legal. You won't get an indemnity for it because it met the regs at the time.

What I don't know is whether any remedial work carried out to the loft floor needs to meet current regs - I suspect it does, but I don't know.