Energy performance certificates...what's the point ?

[tanguero]

Guy was here this morning to do mine. He had to assume we didn't have loft insulation (we're drowning in it), because he couldn't see it (loft is boarded) - I know it's there, I put it there ! Even the bits sticking up around the edges wasn't enough to reassure him...'I have to be able to see more than 50% of it'.
What's the point ? Complicates the buying/selling process, costs £60, and nobody doesn't buy a house because it's banded C rather than B. EPCs were a box ticking exercise imposed by the EU.. Time to get rid ?

I agree partly. Yes it's time to get rid of some of the strangulations the EU imposed. But he's got a point - if he can't see it he can't see it! What else could he do?

the idea was laudable but the execution is useless. They are the only part left of the homeseller pack, and the least useful one!

as you've found it is just a model and hedged about with lots of 'assumed'. The one for my rental suggested improving it from C to B by putting a wind turbine in the garden, presenting a calculation showing that it would take over a century to pay off. Even if it wasn't useless in a small sheltered garden and would not make the place unlivable.

needs some real science. And if anyone has ever seen an A rated place, I'd love to know about it. Maybe an all-electric flat in the centre of a block in London?

I find them useful to give an idea of the overall insulation. I lived in a electric heated flat, then moved to a gas one which was way better, and then finally to my current property. EPC ratings were E, D and C in order. I can feel the significant difference between them during winter. Therefore when house-hunting earlier this year I didn’t even consider the ones with mid-D level to be honest. I want double glazing all around!

Ours is still valid in our house from when it was sold. This suggests it's not worth getting an updated one? We're having new windows put in (going from double glazed in rotting wood frames to upvc) but that's the only change. We're currently rated C, but I guess B is probably the max we could reach.

I was browsing houses the other day and saw one with an "F" and that would give me pause.

I had the opposite, he marked me down on not having insulation because there was no loft access, so I showed him a photo and he upped the score.
Noticed after the sale completed the certificate said semi detached, mine was a terraced, he'd obviously pasted details over another certificate . No one ever noticed anyway.
Half the stuff on the EPC, the purchaser can see for themselves or get from the seller, the rest can be picked up on the survey.

I've just received the EPC from the inspection done yesterday. Because I had boarded over the loft insulation, and hence GREATLY IMPROVED the loft insulation - but because he couldn't actually see it, the roof insulation has been rated as 'very poor' (it's actually bloody marvellous), and the house downgraded from D to C.

Amongst the 'recommended improvements'....'solar water heating', 'typical installation cost £6,000',....'yearly saving £30'. Time it will take to get my money back 'TWO HUNDRED YEARS' !

The EPC scheme is total madness.

'from C to D'

As a renter I like seeing the EPC.

When I was viewing properties last year it gave me a guide as to whether utility bills will be more or less than my previous place, and factored in to the assessment of whether I could really afford the place when considering rent + bills.

I agree with Cheerfulpanda. As a renter I think it’s helpful (but admittedly not the be-all and end-all) to have the EPC rating. You can’t make any changes or improvements to the property so have to live with what’s there and that can make a difference to your costs / enjoyment of the property.

I agree, total waste of time. We have recently sold and haven’t even bothered looking at EPC for our purchase. Seems a money making exercise to me if I am honest, it’s pretty obvious that an old, character properties EPC will be awful compared to an eco new build, but which will last the longest. An EPC wouldn’t influence my decision whether to purchase or not.

Agree....my walls are eighteen inches of solid granite.....they are rated on the EPC as 'very poor'. You couldn't make up such nonsense.

Yes, pointless. I put in my own loft insulation. When I had an epc done although they could see 100% of it, they gave no credit for it on the report as I didn't have a certificate for it.

I just thought 'whatever'.

I wouldn't buy a house if it was an E or lower because a EPC that low means the property can't be rented. It's actually not possible to buy an E rated property in commercial and it's likely to trickle through to residential market in the next few years.

I find the EPC rating very helpful when making a decision about which house is better value for money.

With the greater efforts towards energy efficiency and green energy, it (or some version of it) will become more important, not less.

@tanguero are you sure you are doing your calculations right? It normally takes the average about 15-25 years. Less if you receive the Green Homes Grant and the Renewable Heat Incentive (depending on the energy efficiency measure).

As more and more people become energy efficiency conscious it will matter. We must make our homes more efficient otherwise tackling climate change will be an even steeper mountain to climb.

I would not be interested in a home that has a rating mid D and below. It signals I have too much work to do on insulation, doors, windows, etc. If that’s factored in the price great but if they are listed at the same price as similar properties with a higher rating then I wouldn’t bother.

Certificates are important. Just because you can see an extension and it looks lovely does not mean it is sound. That’s why building certificate is required. Similarly gas verticals, etc. It’s existence does not mean it is up to standard.

Onmyleft Mon 08-Feb-21 08:08:31
@tanguero are you sure you are doing your calculations right? It normally takes the average about 15-25 years.

Yes, I'm reading from the EPC report, on the desk in front of me.
'Recommended...Solar water heating...installation cost £4,000-£6,000...typical yearly saving £30'.

So, at an installation cost of £6,000...it will take 200 years merely to repay the cost of installation. And, of course takes no account of the extra CO2 emissions produced by manufacturing and installing such a system.

It is NONSENSE ON STILTS.

That’s not how it works. You have to consider the opportunity cost. Take for instance solar thermal. If you installed it, you would have to deduct the cost of the boiler or whatever it is replacing.

If such a system could replace your boiler, sure. Something that saves you £30 a year is unlikely to replace your boiler, it would mean you only spend £30 on whatever your boiler is doing.
In any case, the cost for your boiler is there already so you don’t save it by adding something new.

You don’t understand how this works and that’s all I can say. If you care to understand there’s lots of resources out there. Check out the Energy Savings Trust website.

Ouch. This is obviously much too complex for a professional number cruncher.
That Energy Savings Trust wouldn’t be the same body that tells people a smart meter will save energy?
The annual average saving ‘by changing your behaviour’ I believe is the price of a couple of coffees. But then I don’t understand numbers.

Forensic, I am confident you do not understand how to determine the pay back period. Even you noted 200 years is ridiculous. That alone should have alerted you to the fact that something is off with your approach to determining the payback period.

I’ve taken the trouble to look up my own EPC. One of the suggested improvements is floor insulation. The indicative cost is £4k-6k. Typical savings per year £37.
This document has been produced for me - the consumer.
If the above figures do not mean what they say, then they should be explained or they are misleading the consumer.
This improvement btw will not put me in a higher rating.

As someone who works in the industry (uk-energy-assessors.co.uk/domestic-epc), I share some of your concerns. The whole EPC process is designed to try to drive change by providing a way of comparing the energy efficiency of properties - using the A-G rating system. However, getting an accurate rating by non-instrusive survey is actually quite difficult - after all you wouldn't want the survey to knock holes in your walls or ceiling to work out what insulation you really do have. As we move towards Net Zero Carbon, this whole process will need to be reworked so that it makes sense to homeowners, renters and landlords, otherwise it will continue to be a box ticking exercise and will offer little value.

I've found them quite useful when looking at houses to buy. It's so hard to get information from agents or vendors until you offer and pay for solicitors.

One house the vendor is trying to get absolute top whack for marketing as 'immaculate' helped me realise that he's done everything himself and has no paperwork for anything (upon asking a few questions no planning or building regs for knocking out walls, electrics, moving bathrooms around etc).

Another house the EPC changes since the vendor bought indicate a new boiler and roof insulation in the last 4 years.

etc

@onmyleft I also don't understand. Yes, something is definitely off when it says it will take a century or two for an investment to pay back. But the maths makes sense to me.

I replaced my oil boiler with a new one, looking at a 10 year payback. Prepared to do that as it uses considerably less oil. But a wind turbine in a small sheltered back garden does not make any kind of sense at all.