Builders reluctant to give a breakdown of quote

[mothergooseinnorthwest]

Hi all,

Just wonders if that’s your experience as well.

We are getting estimates and quotes from builders. I have politely asked everyone to give us a breakdown and most of them said no problem. But all I got is a list of jobs and a total number.

I emailed two builders who did a long list of jobs for a breakdown and they both ignored that talked about other things in their reply.

I understand they want to protect some profits but I find it so hard to discuss quotes with them when it is just one single number.

Did you get a breakdown for your extension project? What does it look like? Thanks.

It is because they are probably worried that once you have a break down you will look at potentially removing or separately sourcing or self sourcing certain elements or materials. The quote they supplied is for the whole job and not part of the job. Stuff like set up costs, site preliminaries, their insurances are overheads which will be spread across a number of work items. It takes account of their whole time nit fragments of time. Tbh I’ve built two houses now - your builder wants to be a primary contractor for the whole job, not have elements cherry picked from a menu. I’m kind of on the builders side on this. Sorry.

They’ve calculated a desired margin on the whole job.

We do tender summaries of which Prelims & testing & commissioning are 2 separate parts. There are some jobs though where it is almost as expensive to do just one part as it is to do another at the same time.

You aren't paying for the 10 weeks of their time, you are paying for the 30 years of knowledge that enables it to be done well in just ten weeks.

They'll probably give a more comprehensive breakdown if you employ them. Full break down quotes that are accurate take a significant amount of time so tradesmen tend to do less comprehensive ones until they know you will use them.

Why do you want one? Do you want to haggle on particular aspects of the job? If they're quoting to supply & fit, then it's a whole job and they shouldn't have to break it down.

Why do you want one? Do you want to haggle on particular aspects of the job? If they're quoting to supply & fit, then it's a whole job and they shouldn't have to break it down.

Larger building firms employ estimators that do this work and will provide a detailed breakdown. But there are pros and cons in this approach. Firstly you ideally need to employ your own project QS ...otherwise how is the average layman to know the market price of a cubic tonne of ready mix for the footings? Also market prices can fluctuate. I had this during a build post brexit announcement and the price of timber went north. But the builder absorbed the additional cost because he had an upside on other elements.

What I do think is perfectly reasonable to ask for is a budget figure for design elements that YOU need to select. So for example: kitchen units have a budget figure of say £10k, bathroom cabinets £5k etc....otherwise you’ve no idea whether you’re in the market for a Howdens or a Pogen Pohl!

We dont do breakdowns on large jobs for free because far too many people take that and try to use it as a specification to get the job done cheaper, you can have a full breakdown but the time spent to prepare it will be charged at the prevailing rate.

You should OP have a contingency figure added into your budget. Maybe 10%? Stuff can emerge on a build that you cannot expect a builder to just swallow - for example the council see the soil and demand deeper footings, tree protection measures are needed, extra fire safety is needed (fire doors) etc ....all sorts of unforeseens. If the builder doesn’t suggest this, you should have it anyway!

It'll be partly because the costings are dependent on the whole rather than the job broken in to parts. So hiring a digger covers several elements, or putting up scaffolding, or having a portaloo on site etc. It's not possible to detail every element without hours of work which you won't be paying for. It's one of those situations where the whole is not a sum of its parts.

Thanks all. I understand a lot of that. As someone who never had building working done, I am going by advice I got from magazines and some websites. Almost all of them say ask for a full break down of the quote so that you can compare like for like.

I do think from a builders point of view it is time consuming and leaves room for haggling. Essentially I think I want to know like many tv shows I watched, how much I am spending on those patio doors, how much on underfloor heating, etc. I want my money spent where I think will achieve best results.

For example, if underfloor heating is costing me 10k, I may rethink it, I might just have radiators instead and use that budget on a higher end kitchen or have my steel beams lifted to first floor structure instead of boxed in.

Another thing I struggle with is how vague things are. I got a quote not an estimate that doesn’t tell me how many sockets or spot lights are included. Let alone the quality of the material. I definitely will want to spend more to get nicer looking sockets and probably those with USB sockets.

@mothergooseinnorthwest....with the builders quotes you’ve had so far, I’d follow up with reference calls as a next step. Ask these customers how they found them builders working practise around modifications. The stuff around socket provision and spot light numbers I find vague. For a simple extension I would expect to see the quote state - allow x 10 recessed spotlights etc. You do need more detail for sure even if each cost line isn’t itemised. Underfloor heating - is it wet or electric? Ask. Is it being laid on the correct substrates - deetra matting - this is critical for a good job. Ask what is not included.
You need to get a sense of the quality of each builders work from references. As the project gets going, the builder should supply you with a spreadsheet each each detailing project cost variations (unders and overs) so you can monitor costs. In my experience though this tends to be just overs and it’s up to the owner to have their wits about them and point out the unders and get those itemised. If your project is above £250k spend, personally I’d employ a consultant QS on my team. They’re a knowledgable middle man who will query variations and also spot fair opportunities for you to potentially save some money - especially on things like beam layouts which can have dramatic cost variations.

A final word....please don’t be tempted by a builder who suggests payment by cash will save you the VAT on the project. Cash payments are notoriously hard to log. If further down the line post build, you encountered a serious issue (example debonding floor tiles, leak in the underfloor etc) you might find that you don’t have an auditable trial of payments if you paid cash. And also don’t pay anything upfront - only pay for works completed and materials onsite. A good builder should have a reasonable credit allowance with suppliers to purchase what they need. If you only pay for products and services actually received and undertaken you manage your financial risk more carefully.

I am surprised at the responses on this thread. I never had an problem getting a breakdown for the quotes for our extension. I think most builders provided about 25 line items. With things like electrics ask for the cost excluding second fix fittings and you can compare like with like. Without a decent breakdown it is impossible to compare the quality of finish across builders.

If you like I can send you the breakdown of line items we recieved. I would send builders the list and ask them to quote for each so you can compare. Overhead costs and things like skips can be specified seperately if needed. Maybe the builders you are looking at are busy/don't need the work atm.

@Kasparovski many thanks for all the advice. I agree that I need more details.

@weepingwillow22 oh yes please. That would be very helpful. I am not sure how it works on MN, do I need to give you my email address? Thanks.

@weepingwillow22....I think it depends on the job size. We’ve ran a tender for whole house builds and those are broken down to line item. Bear In mind, responding on that level is takes the builders estimator a lot of time - days. If the project is smaller and they’re perhaps aware that the customer is collecting 4 or 5 quotes then for an initial enquiry you can’t reasonably expect them to dedicate that much time to a quote for a job that might not be a big one in the grand scheme.

I thought most builders have software that helps to generate costs for them. Our build was 64m2 though so maybe that does make a difference. I will post the line items on here this evening ( they are on my laptop) as they may be useful to others too.

@weepingwillow22

I thought most builders have software that helps to generate costs for them. Our build was 64m2 though so maybe that does make a difference. I will post the line items on here this evening ( they are on my laptop) as they may be useful to others too.

Ha ha ha.

No. Our tenders (and we do everything from private houses to schools and hospitals are done using paper, pens and an excel spreadsheet.

I think you are being unreasonable to ask for that level of detail before you employ a builder. Your decision should be based on price but also examples of their previous work, client recommendations and how well you think you can work with them. Counting and costing individual sockets is barmy!

You can do some research yourself re the cost of underfloor heating, which is not just about the cost of installation but the running costs in relation to the building as a whole and how you use it.

You should specify the quality of finish you want - e.g. Howdens or bespoke hand crafted. And as someone said up thread, the prices of materials can fluctuate so do build in some contingency.

Once you sign a contract with a builder you can work with the more

detail you can ask for, and you can make adjustments as you go along.

Sorry - don't know why my post was cut off.

What do you want the breakdown? Is it because you are comparing quotes or in order to understand what you are getting?

We have been provided with the level of breakdown that you have requested, but the builders have done work for us before and know that we just wait until they have a slot available for us. They know we are not trying to play them off against anyone else.

Given that builders are very busy, why would they do all that work for you on just a chance of getting the job?

@DorisLessingsCat I am afraid I don’t agree there. Quite a few builders asked me while doing their site visit how many sockets and spot lights. I was caught off guard first time as I didn’t know I have to have things planned out to that level of detail before I talk to them. And no, not individually priced oneS( though one did say it is about £50 each) but at least say if they are covered or not. Because things do add up. It’s just an example to say details will inform me where I can splash out and where I can rein in.

I am talking about quotes not estimates. With estimates, I am happy with a price that’s in the ball park. But I don’t think it is unreasonable to ask for where the costs come from to have an idea of the the quality of work I am getting. And yes, I have done my research on ufh, it can differ quite a lot depending on the system. But that doesn’t tell me how much the builder budgeted for it unless I was told by them.

Builders are hard to choose and it’s not exactly an industry that has a reputation of being reliable. Therefore details in their pricing help as much as your gut feeling and checking references. I have been to see one builders previous work and found out he is friends with his client, who also happens to work in construction. If you are a builder, would you put bad reviews on your own website? Would you give your future clients contacts of previous unhappy clients?

Generally speaking (Assuming the main structural build spec doesn’t vary), variation in costings will all boil down to the level of finish and fit out that you are expecting. And that in turn, depends on you being very clear on your specification upfront....so if you want Villeroy sanitary ware or snazzy light switches you have to possibly look up those items, do your research and tell the builder that’s what you want.
You cannot expect the builders to have a crystal ball and just know your taste or expectations. So perhaps, you need to go back to the builders and be a little clearer?
Once you have consistency across the board, then you can start to compare your quotes: and be careful because a quote is not a binding contract!!!!
Variations thereafter will depend on the skill levels/salaries of the work team, workload at any given point and frankly how much profit the build boss hopes to put in his pocket from the job.