Quotes for extension are nearly double what we discussed with architect

[Barbararara]

We have worked with architect to design our proposed extension. We’ve applied for and received pp and put it out to tender.
So far we’ve received 3 out of 4 quotes and all of them are nearly double the budget originally discussed.

First time dealing with anything like this so I am extremely naive. I’m hoping more experienced posters might know more.

All 3 quotes are within 10k of each other so I’m assuming that is just what it costs to do what we’ve asked. But if that’s the case, shouldn’t the architect have guided us a bit better?

On the other hand, each tender varies widely on individual costs which makes me think that there’s some kind of ballpark figure calculator that they’re using.

But if there is, shouldn’t the architect be using it too?

He’s saying that the next step is to negotiate with the builder, but if all the builders are agreed on price, more or less, my assumption is that there can’t be much movement possible in the price so instead we lose quality?

I don’t know what I should do at this point. I’m feeling very frustrated that we’ve paid several thousand for a design that is unworkable in our budget. I don’t think that our house value justifies the expenditure either. But am I naive in thinking that way too? Should I be talking to an estate agent rather than an architect?

I feel like I’m missing some obvious step in the process somewhere.

If he’d said at the start, that our budget was completely unrealistic we wouldn’t have paid him several thousand for surveying, designing and whatnot.

And if I understood how the costs are calculated we could design within our budget. But how do you find that out, if not from an architect?

I think I would be very clear with the architect that the quotes are coming in far too high and what can be changed to bring costs down. I would also discuss this with the builders who have quoted. Is there anything in the spec that can be changed?

I just had an architect estimate a job at more than twice what my builder estimated (I don't have plans yet, just seeing if we can afford what we want, and how to do it cost effectively)...the architect in my case is making it much, much more complicated than it needs to be...

Not sure what timescales we are talking about here but DP is in the trade and since C-19 hit there have been huge price increases in some materials and demand/supply issues so wonder if this could be an influencing factor? Agree with PP re being open that you’re not wishing to pay that much, what can be done to reduce the spec etc. 10k still seems a bit wide for the quotes to be out, I’d await quote 4, too. Also make sure you’ve done your research & get plenty of feedback on the company - usually, you get what you pay for!

Thanks for reading that ramble and replying.

That’s interesting about C-19 affecting prices. I hadn’t considered that. I’ll look into that aspect. I’m not in a great hurry to do this so if that’s a big factor I might just sit tight.

We are definitely being open with architect about our budget (and clear from the start).

It’s interesting about the architect over estimating your build.

Very common problem! Exactly this reason for us doing our build in two phases.
Material prices are temporary (especially plaster) so that doesn't affect a longer term build; rough estimates are in the region of 2.3-2.7k per sqm of new build, less for renovated.
Your specification needs to be VERY carefully written and your quotes broken down clearly or you'll end up with completely uncomparable lists. You basically have two bits to the quote - the build and the 'finish'; all build quotes should be close in price, the level of finish varies massively and completely dependent on how you define the level of finish you want. Your interpretation of a mid level door might be solid oak and the builders, for quoting, will say a mid level door is a £35 Wickes special.
Next time round, I'm putting the base level out to tender (enabling works, base build, plumbing, electrics etc up to 2nd fix) and then having a completely different list for the finish - doors, light fittings, switches, bathrooms... Basically everything you actually see and makes you feel like it was £300k well spent lol

I would get a few more quotes ours ranged massively, between £2.3 and £4 k m² we got 7 in the end. Builders can advise on where you can reduce costs. We removed 2 things to be done a bit later ( all prep work done) so we kept a healthy contingency. If we haven't needed it we will ask our builder to complete as he has already quoted for it. We also asked him to price up some jobs individually and have said to remove some from the spec that we will do. Painting tiling ( walls) etc.

@Loofah01 thank you. That’s very clear. I’m going to comb through the tenders until I get to grips with exactly what’s being referenced.
Very useful to at least think about it in two parts.

@Slightlydustcovered that’s genius to create the contingency. Very sensible

Hi @Barbararara - I’ve got exactly the same issue at the moment. Paid architect £15k to plan and draft the tender pack for our renovation. Gave a clear budget of £250k from day one. We aren’t extending, but replacing windows and bathrooms and reconfiguring layout. It isn’t significant structural work, but will improve how we live in the space.

First quote was £350k, second quote over £500k, third quote is somewhere in the middle. Yup, half a million pounds for the highest and that doesn’t even include everything we asked for!!! I’m in shock to be honest. The house would never be worth the extra spend.

I’ve already worked out what parts of the project to shelve/change. I’ll have to manage lots of different trades myself and get cash in hand labourers to do the “demolition” part.

I’m really annoyed with the architect. We’ve wasted so much money on a design that won’t be put into practice!!

Hi @Barbararara and Hotel. I'm in the same position unfortunately. Wasted 6 months and 5k on an architect to produce renovation plans. My budget, clearly expressed, was 40k. The quotes came in at the end of Feb at 86k, 89k and 97k! I am also very annoyed at my architect and wonder if I can report him to the relevant body. They obviously know these plans are over budget but carry on because we are paying them!

I was gutted because it means I'll have to project manage the renovation myself and it will take longer and cause more hassle.

However, there is a silver lining. I thought I would find a reputable builder by going through an architect. Not so. One of the builders wanted 13k to replace the upvc windows and fit one patio door. Another builder wanted 8k. I've had 3 quotes, all around 4.5k. I've just painted the house exterior. Scaffolding was £650. One builder quoted me £1800 for scaffolding. I was quoted £150 each for internal doors, £1200 for door furniture etc. Can source it myself much cheaper. Also, all the builders specified unnecessary things such as a 'welfare unit', ie a portakabin with a loo and kettle. The builders are making huge profits.

The architect suggested I revise my plans and negotiate with the builders but that's pointless when they're already charging too much.

We had a small renovation project on our house. Got 3 quotes in. Went with the builder I felt I could trust the most and he did do what I wanted him to do but left finishing touches to me which I think was my fault a bit as I didn't specify explicitly from the start. Our quotes ranged from 4k - 8k and that was + materials that I would have to source and purchase myself. I was happy to do this but would have preferred a little more guidance.

I think it's extremely difficult if you don't know anyone in the trades. I went on check a trade but actually I would have been happier with 20 more quotes and to view some work that was done on a similar property.

Prices vary depending in the market. We had an extension done and did negotiate as the builder we wanted was too expensive...we were a good bet for him as we were not rushing to start so he knew he had a job waiting.

Neighbours with very similar extension got quotes double ours 18 Ma this later....couldn't get them reduced so had to cut down the build. We just dropped lucky I guess.

Final bill was circa 30% more than what architect estimated...remember they are also trying to sell you a service so if people realised what the real price was then many wouldn't go ahead.

So I'm taking away from this thread not to trust the prices architects give you/work to...

That’s why I will never use an architect again. Having had a similar experience OP we are using a ‘start to finish’ company for our next project. There are a few around us. Usually set up by builders, they do the whole project. So you give them a budget, you design what you want with the builder, he gets architectural technicians (much cheaper than architects) to do the drawings to a brief. You can go out to tender after the drawing, to be sure you aren’t being taken for a ride. I see no point in engaging with a service that seems incapable of designing anything to a specified budget.

Architects are notoriously optimistic when it comes to cost. Have you never seen an episode of Grand Designs?

@stoppingtothink that's exactly what we did as well. We knew what we wanted (a fairly straightforward 2 storey extension at the side and a total refurb - windows, doors, boiler etc), there was no need to have an architect design it. Getting the drawings done, pp and building regs came to £3k. I am aghast at people paying £15k to plan and draft 'tender packs'. How can this be justified and why is it even necessary?

There was a recent episode of grand designs where the architect's ambition had ruined the client - financially and emotionally. His marriage gad failed, his budget imploded and he had two houses, one not finished and never would be and one he couldn't sell. It was awful.

Yes...I would take what the architect estimates with a pinch of salt. They also often estimate on the basis of just the build..ie walls windows, doors and floors.

To put in perspective....our architect estimated £40k. End bill was £80k with kitchen and utility fitted out. Plus heating cost more as needed underfloor as rads not practical (you would have thought an architect would have realised), lighting and sockets were estimated on very basic levels and then the build just cost more. Couldn't fault the builder...he was excellent and no question of being ripped off at all.

Happy with the extension. Not likely to get money back as would exceed threshold for the area I suspect, but is likely to have added a lot. Doesn't matter as we won't be moving until we need a retirement flat which hopefully is a long way off!

I'm an architect and would say that I always say to clients from the outset that costs can vary hugely depending on spec and market conditions and they only way to accurately price a job is to put it out to tender however we often put jobs out for an initial price with builders before submitting to planning to ensure they are viable.

I always recommend a contingency figure of 10-15% and never include the cost of a kitchen as it's so specification dependent for example I've done kitchens that cost £2500 and kitchens that cost £100k
I also remind people that VAT is added to quotes as that's a big shock for many.
I have never had a job not go ahead due to budget - we always find a solution.

I think there are some architects that are crap at this and weirdly bad at communication in general - I have taken over jobs from other people because of this & because I seem to have cultivated a reputation of listening to clients.

However there are also clients who push and push and don't listen too. I've rarely found architects that will be pinned down on costs because they can vary so much due to stuff outside of our control usually we will stick to a very rough figure per m2 with caveats.
I had a client make me double the size of their extension from what I recommended, who were then completely surprised when it was almost double the price.

When getting quotes from builders make sure they are quoting for the same detailed spec and break down their quote so you can see where it's going and then ask where they think they could make savings - sometimes they have deals with certain merchants which means they can get a different brand of insulation or brick for example cheaper than what is specified and there may be little difference to you.
Also check what insurances your builders hold - some cheaper ones won't be insured which is a big issue if there is a problem.

Quotes are also a bit all over the place at the moment - some builders are undercutting to win jobs (these prices will inevitably go up as the build goes on) and others have increased prices as everything is taking longer with social distancing measures in place (less people on site at once, increased equipment) and then there are shortages for some products due to factory shut downs - so they may need to be some conversations to be had about what builders can get hold of. I have had a real mixed bag come in for jobs over the past few weeks.

A really good architect will hold your hand through this process but will charge you for that as it takes time. On a more difficult job this is worth it because they can make savings which more than outstrip their costs on a small job this can be more about hassle rather than saving money.

It also depends on what you've agreed on the fee agreement - I often have people who only want to employ me to produce plans for submission to planning based on a rough £ per m2 budget - which is fine but if the spec at detailed stages gets ramped up, the costs are going to be higher and have bugger all to do with me as I haven't had anything to do with the spec bar what was needed to get through planning.

I'm very specific in my fee agreement as to what is and isn't covered and this has tightened up over time as clients assume more and more is included but also because I want to be clear with client what needs to be done to do a job properly.

There are lots of people in this industry that people think are architects (architectural designers, architectural planners, plan drawers, draughtsmen) - who may have no qualifications at all, and there are also some crap architects.

If quotes are coming in too high have you discussed with the architect why they think this is happening? Have you spoken to any of the builders to ask before appointment where they think savings could be made without affecting the overall outcome too much?

One client I had fell in love with a dividing screen that they wanted added to the build - when we got quotes it came in at £8k compared to the simple door & side panels which was originally there which had been budgeted at £500 - they decided they loved it enough to go ahead anyway and we tried to make some smaller piecemeal savings to make up for it.
It's hard because an 'extension' could mean anything from a few thousand to millions - there too many factors to generalise for what is typical.

Sorry I've gone on a bit. Hope there is something useful in there and hope you find a workable solution.

This is the reason we didn’t go ahead with our reconfiguration, which involved moving the bathroom upstairs. Also living in the southeast I think the prices are higher.

It’s very interesting to read about everyone’s experiences.

I’m going to get some more quotes from independent builders, unconnected to the architect and then see where we’re at.

For what it’s worth, we thought an architect was justified because there is a tricky aspect with steel supports, and also the neighbours plot is stepped down several feet from ours. But mostly because we wanted to minimise the hassle. A friend project managed her own extension and it was disasterous on every level, dragged on forever with trades letting her down, dodgy people in her house, stuff going missing, and a part that had to be changed as it wasn’t compliant with some regulation. And she is far more ballsy than I am. I’m going to have my hands full with ds who has asd and likely won’t tolerate building work well. I was happy enough to pay the architect for what I thought he was going to do.

Thanks for sharing experiences. Misery loves company I suppose but it’s helpful to know it’s not uncommon.

It's hard to tell without seeing what your plans are whether on not they are wildly out of kilter but I would have a chat with the builders that who have already quoted and see where they say they think savings are made. It can be things you wouldn't even think of and may not effect quality overall.
I would ask friends, colleagues and neighbours for recommendations of builders and also look at the FMB website for your area and get some more quotes.
If you've engaged the architect to project manage the whole process then they should be doing this for you but you can do it yourself by just chatting to them.
Contractors vary wildly due to set up, larger firms have more capacity but also bigger overheads, they may have trades on payroll, where as a smaller contractor may sub out and have less set up fees - so the variation can be due to that, smaller firms can take longer but be cheaper, however longer can cost more if scaffolding has to be up for a long time as this often charged per week.
Some contractors charge silly amounts for decorating as they don't want to do it so getting in your own decorator can be cheaper
Sometimes there is a mark up for the contractor to go out and buy the kitchen/ bathroom fittings (supply & fit) to cover their overheads and time so getting them to fit only where you buy and they fit can make a saving however the risk of making sure it's the right size and arrives at the right time is transferred to you.
Site set up costs can also factor in - if you can let them use your wc rather than hiring a toilet this can be a saving in some situations. Don't knock lots of little savings they can add up to a big difference.
How detailed was the spec they quoted on? Some quotes may have made assumptions usually called provisional sums - which are a best guess - if there isn't enough detail in the tender pack then the quote will have more of these, some contractors also put them in because they don't want to spend time working it out, so make a guess.
Whatever you do make sure you only deal with firms who give you a proper contract preferably one of the standard ones produced by outside agencies (JCT/ RIBA/ FMB) not written by the firm themselves.

Hope you get sorted

Welfare units are not unnecessary, they are a legal requirement unless you are willing allow the builders to use your bathroom

If you go down the smaller contractor route, you might be able to find one who isn't Vat registered saving 20% on labour. These arent going to be members of FMB though and their contracts might be a bit looser. There are some good old timers who fall into this category but also some cowboys. Best to find a recommendation or at least view previous work /take references.

On our build quotes varied from 120k to 240k. We told architect budget 100k. The first one to come was 240k and I burst into tears. There wasn't rhyme or reason to where the quotes would come in at. Big companies were cheaper than one man bands and vice versa.

If you can't get a quote at an acceptable level, speak to your architect about how you can 'value engineer' - take some cheaper options

@helpfulperson
I didn't say they were unnecessary just that you could save money by letting them use your existing toilet rather than hiring one - some people hate this idea or there may not be an appropriate toilet for them to use but for many it's not a problem, they just may not have considered it

Our four quotes were all over double & within £15k of each other. The architect was very apologetic.

Our project was a single storey extension and conversion of an existing room. It took 18 months from initial discussion to getting through planning & the tender process. Nothing particularly fancy as architect knew our budget and pricing excluded kitchen.

He said prices had risen quickly & one of the causes was the building trade inflating prices unnecessarily in advance of Brexit. At that point there were no supply issues.

We've completely scaled back as it just wasn't justifiable or ever likely to be recovered when eventually sell & are only one converting room at the moment.

@wonkylegs sorry cross post. That was aimed at @PandoraRocks who did say they were unnecessary.