London - 700k budget a nice two-bed flat or small house further out with DS

[rollypolly80]

Hi,

This is a follow up from another thread. I've been debating whether to go for a nice two-bed flat in a fab area with good schools/shortish commute or go for a two-bed house somewhere further out and probably less nice.

I am a single parent with one DS so great schools and commuting are important. I'll never be able to afford private and would love for DS to go somewhere nice. Currently renting in the centre which is super convenient but expensive and should really buy. I come from abroad and have always lived in flats, but a few people were suggesting that I should opt for a house but further out.

What would you do? Is it always better to opt for a house or is a nice big flat good enough? Is my kid going to be looked down for living in a flat - sorry am clearly over-worrying about this, I already have enough guilt that his dad is not around without him being made fun of that we don't have a massive house with a drive.

*easy to see if freehold of the flat is owned by residents.

Residents have a vested interest in the flat looking nice, and also an interest in keeping service charges reasonable as every flat pays the same service charge. Also when a development has gone through collective enfranchisement i.e. residents bought the freehold, the ground rent is peppercorn.

How far out? We're completing on a 4 bedroom house in Teddington for that money, appreciate thats quite a far out but shows you can get a bit more bang for buck if you can or want to go further out.

The British way of thinking about property is not necessarily the right way though. Or at least, not the only right way.

You don't need a big house, and you'd just be giving yourself more to clean and maintain. Now you've said a bit more about your circumstances, I would go for the best flat I could afford as centrally as I could get it, so your free time is spent with your son, and not commuting. I wouldn't worry about whether it's an investment either - it should be your home, not a nice little earner.

@GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal 100% agree.

@maxelly - thank you for the advice. I've started a different threat regarding areas. To be honest, I don't know London all that well and most of the people I know have moved out and commute in. So dont have that many people to ask in person and its a bit hard to drag a six-year-old around lots of different parts of London especially now, so trying to identify a few areas to focus on.

Job wise I work in a university, so I guess have the education/expectations, but not the earning potential of a lot of Londoners. So yes to reading the guardian and the FT, but dont get having to be into things or buying the latest thing for me or my son. Went to parliament hill and was super scared of how proper and posh it looked.

In terms of people - I guess that am trying to replicate my life in Europe, which can get a bit confusing in the UK. A few of my basic assumptions are nice schools, public transport, not sure that I get suburbia - what do people do there? I assume that I should have somewhere to meet friends for a coffee/food, have a cinema, leisure centre, shops nearby. Since having my son being local has become a lot more important - I guess, but I still try to take him to museums/centre a few times a month. Politcally am left wing and if am honest would find it hard to settle in an area that isnt.

At the moment, I live in zone 1 - which is great for everything, but a) cant afford to buy here, b) if I have to be honest everyone is really rich and fancy here. I love that its so international, but just dont work in the city or earn lots of money. I earn ok but without a partner plus DS my money just doesnt stretch as far. So yes, I can buy a two-bed for 650-700, but could never stretch it to a house somewhere like Muswell Hill as some other people have suggested.

For example, this is nice, and even has a third bedroom, if you want a home office, or a guest room:

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-91841210.html

I used to live in this block myself - it's a fabulous area, you are 30 seconds from Chalk Farm tube and two stops from Euston. The 168 bus goes past your back door to Euston, or it's about a 40 min walk (used to do it myself). It also has a lovely large communal garden and the building always felt very safe:

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-90077699.html

Another one in the same block:

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/fullscreen/view-floorplan.html?propertyId=76950736

Or actually in Euston, with a bit of outdoor space too:

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-69002097.html

I rather envy you your options.

@rollypolly80

Share of freehold 2 bed flat with little patio garden. Within catchment of fortismere. I love muswell hill, live down the road in East Finchley.
0.9 miles is pretty walkable to the tube or you can take a bus.

I am a Guardian reader too and used to look at areas based on whether they voted for Brexit or not lol.

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-78188512.html

@rollypolly80 actually my dream home but DH says only purpose built flats or houses, he hates maisonettes and conversions.

Thank you everyone!!! Seriously that's all been super helpful!!

Am probably just feeling nervous about the whole thing. Buying sounds so final and definite. Like you really have to find the right thing and claim it as yours if that makes sense. Renting is great, you get something that works for now and don't worry too much about the future. Except that my rent is a lot higher than a mortgage plus you can get kicked out. The last place I rented abroad I lived in for ten years and would probably have stayed had we not moved countries/DH passing away. So just need to take a deep breath and get on with it......

says only purpose built flats or houses, he hates maisonettes and conversions.

I've lived & been inside a ton of purpose built maisonettes

@GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal - thank you. See for me - those flats look fine. But it's not a house....hence the wobble regarding houses v flats.

@Desiringonlychild - that looks lovely. Whats Muswell Hill like? A couple of people have recommended it?

1. Do not take British advice on buying houses. The majority are deluded and financially illiterate. If you buy a house as an ‘investment’ on a mortgage and live on it you’re basically speculating. That’s not to say you shouldn’t be buying a property to occupy on a mortgage, it’s often cheaper than renting, but if you are buying it with the expectation that it’s going to increase in value you are essentially betting on government policy.
2. Nothing wrong with flats just be sure to choose a good quality building. A lot of flats in London are ghastly because They are often in houses that have been converted so not really fit for purpose or brutalist monstrosities. If you pick and nice one I can be lovely.

I like these ones:

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-65455314.html

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-92382872.html

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-66326910.html

Muswell Hill is lovely, very lively, very popular middle class family area. Beautiful victorian houses on leafy avenues, lots and lots of restaurants, cafes, posh shops (but also supermarkets and regular shops as well). Quite expensive relative to the areas around it (it's a bit of a fancy enclave) but as you only need 2 bedrooms you should be able to afford a lovely flat or small house there. My only reservations about the area would be transport - depending on which end of Muswell Hill you choose you may have a long-ish walk or bus ride to the tube or train station which is a bit of a pain (or buses do run all the way into town but may take longer than 30 mins at rush hour). My knowledge on schools is a bit outdated but as with anywhere in London you may need to be careful about catchment areas, especially for primary schools. If you want a specific 'outstanding' school you will need to live very close to it to be sure of getting in - but don't get too drawn into London madness re getting into an outstanding primary, one rated 'good' will be perfectly fine and potentially even suit your son better, a lot of the competitiveness is for snob/boasting value rather than the schools actually being better IMO. Secondaries wise in Muswell Hill you have Highgate Wood, Parliament Hill, Acland Burghley, Wren Academy (all perfectly good schools) and Fortismere which is Outstanding but quite difficult to get into IIRC...

To be honest London is not like a lot of non-European cities where outside the centre you get 'deserts' where there are literally just houses/flats and not a lot else, pretty much anywhere in London inside the M25 you will find cafes, shops, leisure centres etc within walking distance - it just varies as to the degree of poshness/middle-class-ness (subtle nuances which may be wasted on the non-English so don't worry too much about it!). So perhaps use Rightmove's school checker as a tool to match up outstanding secondary schools (I'd use this as a guide rather than primaries) against affordability?

@rollypolly80 Muswell hill is like living in a village/naice Home Counties town in zone 3 London. It has beautiful edwardian style buildings, and a gorgeous high street with all the usual designer shops- oliver bonas, space nk, jigsaw, mint velvet, white stuff, sweaty betty. It also has a ton of independent shops, cafes, artisan bakeries. Also an organic supermarket, planet organic. But crucially it also has useful shops like a well stocked sainsbury, franco manca, wetherspoons if you are into cheap pints. Muswell Hill also has an Everyman Cinema

There is also Coldfall Woods/Alexandra Palace for walks and the delights of Highgate close at hand. You can walk, cycle or bus down to East Finchley Station, 20 minutes into Central London.

It is known for being very leftie. I think also the main attraction is the schools- lots of outstanding primary schools and Fortismere. When I was flat searching, one of my sellers was a single mum who owned a 4 bed house and bought a 2 bed flat right next to fortismere to get her daughter in. She kept the house and lived in the flat. Testimony to how highly regarded the school is.

3 bed 2 bath house in West Hampstead if you're set on a house: www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-91841201.html

Re schools.

You can look at OFSTED outstanding ones and they can be truly great or truly awful because they are too focussed on keeping their outstanding status than what the children themselves are doing.
And the parents buy into it to some extent. We visited one and the HT seemed almost gleeful in the fact that my children would be bullied because they were joining after Reception and everyone has their own friends so my dc would be ostracised.
We left one outstanding primary to go to a lovely friendly primary that was in special measures.
Ds did so well there.
A few months after we left the outstanding primary had an OFSTED inspection and a lot of problems (the reasons we left) were brought up. The HT left and it went downhill very fast.

OTOH the special measures primary was upgraded to Outstanding

I wouldn’t get too focussed on the schools till you have chosen an area then look at all the local schools to see which ones you think would be a good fit for your dc.

@Desiringonlychild..that does sound lovely...will definitely check it out. Is it too posh?? Is it weird to be scared of posh people? I am still getting used to England and its own rules.Its also hard to go from a place that you know really well and have your own friends etc so a massive new city in a whole new country. I have been renting for a year now but it's still all a bit baffling.

From the list of Crouch End, Stoke Newington, London Fields, Queens Park, Kensal Rise, Muswell Hill or West Hampstead - where would you go for if a flat?

Flat with garden is fine and completely normal.
Lots of school mates will have same in the areas mentioned. You have a great budget for a garden flat in zone 2 or 3 with good transport. Camden has good schools. Or be in catchment for lateymer Enfield grammar. Eg tufnell park www.latymer.co.uk/

Your ds when older will appreciate easy access to transport etc.
Go for easy commute for you. You could make cycle to work some areas mentioned and multiple options train tube bus taxi in emergency . If you live 20 minutes out mainline train commute that s a big taxi fare in emergency .

@rollypolly80 i would choose muswell hill for the schools but also because I am familiar with the area, having lived in east finchley. Its true that Ofsted reports are not indicative of everything. But also true that parents want their children to go to the best school possible and Ofsted/results is 1 measure of that, though not the only means of course! I don't really find crouch end very pretty really. West Hampstead is nice but I find the inequality a bit scary. There is this huge waitrose and plenty of posh looking flats, but i know that my synagogue was raising money and putting together food packages for this primary school in west hampstead where 75% were on free school meals. I like to live in a place where there are more middle income and comfortably off people as opposed to super rich and super poor- also that is usually the sweet spot where there are excellent state schools. There are exceptions i.e. kensington and chelsea, richmond but great state schools usually exist in places where parents are fairly well off and educated but not the kind with loads of money who has 0 issues sending 2-3 kids off to private school while paying off a mortgage for an expensive house, and hence would like to live near good state schools.

I wouldn't really worry about posh people. I am an immigrant too so it was all a bit baffling as there isn't a class system back home. Muswell Hill is multicultural (like all of London) so there are plenty of people from other countries and also people from immigrant backgrounds who are doing well for themselves but don't fit into the class system neatly.

No I wouldn't say too posh/scary at all. Most of London is highly multi-cultural in every sense of the word, and there will be loads of people in the same boat of being relatively new to the area and without roots/established friendship groups. And although the english do have a fairly baffling/complex set of social rules, so it's not weird at all you find it scary, the good news is as an 'outsider' you will be largely exempt and forgiven for not appreciating the nuances so please don't worry! As an academic-working culture-loving lefty you'll absolutely fit in just fine pretty much anywhere in London, especially the areas you mention.

Of the areas on your list I think I'd go for Crouch End, Stoke Newington or Muswell Hill personally, but it really is worth trying to visit a few as they have different 'feels'- appreciate you don't want to drag your 6 year old around too much but you could look up something nice to do in the area (Stoke Newington for instance has a lovely park with play areas, paddling pool, aviaries/animal area and cafe that would be well worth a weekend visit, post Covid of course) and just top in for a quick visit to each over the course of a few weekends to get a feel for each area?

What is your £650-700k budget based on if you don't mind me asking? How much are you expecting to be able to borrow from banks - do you have a mortgage in principle? Be mindful that lenders are now beginning to impose restrictions.

Seems to me that you are happy renting in central London (Though £2k is obviously a high rent and you could pay a lot less with a mortgage), guessing you are renting quite close to your place of work, and am I wrong in believing your place of work may be near Gower St ? I only ask as I used to live quite close to Warren Street station and I absolutely loved it there. I also enjoyed exploring the local areas (Fitzrovia, Camden, Chalk Farm, Hampstead etc) and knew I'd rue the day I had to leave. Since London is new to you, perhaps you ought to aim to stay quite local - you seem as though you don't want a huge upheaval for your young son and that's understandable. Camden, Chalk Farm, Belsize Park, Tufnell Park, Hampstead are all good options. There are lots of new build flats in these areas too, flats that were massively overpriced which will likely come down in price soon, so you may be able to bag yourself a good deal. There was a thread on here recently on new build properties, and a lot of the posters were claiming how happy they were living in one, as energy bills are much lower, and there are fewer issues to deal - though do be mindful about service charges.

Islington/Cannonbury are also good areas to consider. Very liberal, nice high-streets, good community spirit and a very easy commute to Euston - you could even walk! I'm not as well versed on Finchley and surrounding areas as @Desiringonlychild but I've heard good things, and being on the northern line would mean an easy commute.

If it's a 2 bed flat you're after, and you want to emulate your living situation when you were in Europe, my suggestion would be to forego the house, and opt for the flat. You'd deffo get more for your money in Walthamstow though (North London is expensive for what you get compared to south imo)- the Victoria line starts in Walthamstow so your commute to Euston would be easy peasy. It's very liberal, lovely village and I know people with families who live there and are really happy.

@Smallgoon - my budget is basically a deposit plus 3*times my salary. I have spoken to a mortgage adviser and he said that should be fine. I am in a funny position to have an ok deposit but not the biggest salary by London standards and only one income. Which basically means that I can get something for that money, but probably cant expect to see my salary go up all that much in the near future.

I initally decided to rent near work because it seemed easier and I do love the fact that the area is both full of useful things like supermarkets, but also parks, museums etc.But realistically cant buy here, which is fine. It's also very transient and a bit too much at times hence looking for other other areas to move to

From that list I’d choose Crouch End, the Stroud green side of Finsbury Park (I.e between Finsbury Park station and crouch end) or Stoke Newington. Personally Muswell Hill is a little far out for me but if you’re getting the northern line it’s probably fine (I’m thinking of the rammed bus down to Finsbury Park for the Victoria line). It is lovely there though.

I’d go for Walthamstow based on the best transport links and it meets your criteria.

@rollypolly80 I know you've had lots of response already but here is my two cents, as a (only half-British) London single mother of one in a similar position and price bracket -

I would always choose location (inc schools) over extra bedrooms. Brits so often seem hung up on houses over flats, and gaining extra 'space' or being able 'to go upstairs to bed' but bigger houses are not always the best option. They require more maintenance, more cleaning, and often more work and more driving.

Flats can offer a sense of community, gardens that you don't have to tend yourself, and neighbours you can rely on. Plus the more central you are, the more public transport options there will be once your child is a bit more independent. And the more local friends you have, the more likely they will eventually help with childcare, playdates etc. Some of the richest people in our neighbourhood live in flats (and we are at private school) and I'd be surprised at many in London had any prejudice against them.

I would actually avoid zone 1, even if it were affordable, because it's harder to find a real life family atmosphere there. But Zone 2 can be worth paying for if it means you will have more time, less stress and crucially - you and your son will be able to reach people easily and become part of a community.

I am currently trying to buy an £800K 2 bed flat in zone 2 with a tiny but nice garden - and i definitely want this more than a bigger place elsewhere.

Try Balham? Good luck :-)