Balcony and planning permission *images removed by MNHQ at OP's request*

[Morley19]

Does anyone have any experience of balconies and planning permission? Epxperience of a situation similar to mine?

My neighbours have put this up without planning permission. I have reported it and they have to put a retrospective planning application in.

The photo looking outside is the view from my bedroom window. gives them a direct view into my bedroom and even onto my landing. The external photo shows the vastness of it and the ridiculous amount of overlooking.

To me, there is no way they should get planning permission for this. but I hear of such weird decisions by councils. I have already drafted my objection (the planning application is meant to be in by end of this week) but I am very worried that they may get approval.

Thanks

Sorry I can’t answer your question but just wanted to wish you luck with this.

It is appalling and I would be horrified if this was my house.

I read your thread back in December I really hope they get turned down

Thanks both of you. I am absolutely dreading it that they might get it. All logic says they shouldn’t but you just never know with these things

There's no harm in mentioning the guidance, but it is just guidance i.e. it may not apply to all situations. I expect the 1.5m is to avoid an overbearing impact on neighbouring properties.

HELP HELP HELP from any planning officers/experts out there.

Update.

The application is now live and has received a lot of objections. I even went to the parish council meeting last night and they are in full support and submitting an objection themselves.

However, I had the site visit from the planning officer this morning. She said that, even if it was refused and they were served with an enforcement notice to remove the railings there was nothing they could do to stop them just using the flat roof (without railings).

Now this is contrary to general advice I had from the planning department a year ago (I still have the email which I will forward to the officer). A year ago they said to let them know if EITHER railings were erected OR they started using it as a balcony.

If they have to take the rialings down they are teh sort of people that would just put plants up round the edge of the flat roof and use it anyway. So I would still have all the same issues of being completely overlooked, noise disturbance etc.

I just can't believe this can be the case? It is bonkers!

The officer was trying to say that the issues wasn't about 'use' but about development ie the physical railings.

If the planning law can prevent them from putting railings/screens up to create a balcony but allows them to use it ias a balcony with nothing then there seems to be some very serious flaws in the legislation??!

Please has anyone got any advice on how I can challenge this? I am desperate! How can the law allow them to just start using a flat roof as habitable space with compeltely overlooks the neighbour, including a direct view into the neighbours bedroom??

Many thanks

x

I would look at paying for a planning expert to advise what your options are. They could use it as balcony without the railings but enforcement would be very difficult for council find out what the penalties are for using it like this.

Yes the planner is right, essentially if they use the space with no railing then no development has occurred and therefore you wouldn’t be able to enforce anything. Saying that if they continued to use the space then you could argue that there has been a material change to the way the roof was being used and the planners may ask for a retrospective application for the balcony without the railings but again it would be difficult to enforce. As essentially how can you stop someone accessing their roof

Thanks both for your replies

The advice I had previously had was that they can’t start using it as habitable space without permission? Would it still not be possible to enforce against this, particularly given all the overlooking problems/invasion of privacy?

This is true, under planning legislation you can't stop someone accessing their own roof, you can't argue a change of use if it's their roof, that would only work if it was the roof of another property. The physical development (the railing) requires permission not the concept of the balcony, the replacement of a window with a door or creation of a new door in a rear elevation is permitted development so no breach there either. If they are forced to remove the railing if permission is refused though then having no railing would fail building regs so you would need to complain to building control if they used the balcony without a balustrade. I agree this is a crappy thing for a neighbour to do by the way!

Thanks picktick

I spoke to buildings control a while ago about french doors to the flat roof and no balustrade fir safety. He said that as it was a private dwelling then it was their lookout to not have safety railings and building refs couldn’t do anything

Was the flat roof the balcony is on built as permitted development or with planning permission? If my local council has applications for flat roofed rear extensions we put on a condition to say that the flat roof shall not be used as a terrace/balcony and that there shall be no access to the flat roof other than for maintenance. It’s quite a difficult condition to enforce, so on slightly dodgy ground.

The GPDO relates to permitted development and provides that some development doesn’t need planning permission. With single story rear extensions Class A(k) excludes development (extensions/alterations to a dwellinghouse) including the formation of a balcony, veranda or terrace from being permitted development (that wouldn’t require planning permission). It’s all quite complicated though. Because without the railings, they’re just using a flat roof - it’s the railings that sort of make the balcony/are the development rather than the action of pottering about on the flat roof, which wouldn’t be a change of use as such.

My local authority would refuse planning permission for the balcony because even with the screen it is if a size to be quite well used and the screening itself would be visually overbearing.

I have to say that they would be nuts to use the flat roof as a balcony without the railings. It’s really dangerous, and using plant pots to make an edge is just stupid - what if they are blown off or fall off? If they were fixing planters to the roof there may be a legal argument for that being development that would need planning permission and that would be enforceable I suppose - I’d be bending the ear of the borough solicitor to get a legal view if I was the enforcement officer.

I can't imagine anyone being daft enough to use it As a balcony without the railings but they've been complete dick heads thus far..

Hi

Thanks for your reply.

It looks like ground floor extension was done without planning permission back in 1991. All I can find online is a building control summary

The current owners changed the pitch roof on it to a flat one a few years ago and put doors in (obviously with this in mind).

This is why I previously contacted the council and they said they could do both of those things without planning permission but couldn’t start using the flat roof as a balcony without planning permission. They said to let them know if they ever put railings up OR just started sitting out there I.e. using it as a balcony

Hi yes but you haven’t met my neighbours! 😂😂

Joking aside, yes they would be idiots

Let’s hope they fall off it drunk, straight into their hot tub, that is directly below it!

I don’t actually mean that...... am just exasperated by the whole nightmare

Hi op I am a planning committee member. You are in a right old pickle and I really feel for you. Planning rules are not too far away from law I've had to pick through them several times when we've had objections to applications. I have a few pieces of advice that you may have already done but may help. Please have a look at the online planning portal it's quite user friendly and can help with reasons for planning refusal. The national planning policy framework will also help with this.
Does your local area have a county or neighbourhood plan. These carry significant weight with planning officers and if a development is seen to be not in keeping with the local area and this is stated in the plan the officer should listen to it. If you can find any similar cases where planning was refused find out what the reason given by the planning officer was and quote it in your objection.

Hi callmeruss

Thanks for your reply

I have already submitted my objection. The application already has 9 objections lodged a against it and I know the parish council are objecting too.

I did exactly what you have suggested. Did lots of research on the planning portal and my council website. I looked through many past applications and quoted the relevant sections of the local plan and extending your home document.

I am quietly confident that this application will get refused and they will have to take the railings down.

What I am worried about is this ridiculous state of play that they would be able to use the roof anyway without railings which, if there was anyone stupid enough to do that, it is them!

Brilliant it sounds like you've done everything you can. Your parish council will have quite a strong voice too which is a good thing. Do you know when the date for the decision is?

Our house had a balcony and the railing rusted and fell off. The planning department said we either had to replace the rail with a new rail at least 1.1m tall, or we had to remove the French door. Because we were absolutely not permitted to have doors onto a roof with no safety rail.

Looking back at the original post - does the flat roof predate the balcony? If it wasn’t constructed to be used as a balcony there’s no way it’s been built with sufficient load bearing capacity. Has the home owner submitted load bearing calculations done by a surveyor as part of the planning application? If the roof wasn’t built to be used as a balcony it’s dangerous. Compared to a normal flat roof it cost us nearly double to have our flat roof built with weight bearing beams in order to make it suitable for use as a balcony.

Hi

The decision date is supposedly 7 May. I would give you the link to the application but that would probably break all sorts of online privacy issues!

That is very interesting Sosigdog. I have to admit I couldn’t believe it when the buildings regs guy said that, as it was a private property, they could have doors to a flat roof with no railings. I’ll have to pursue that further if needs be

Without being too unkind they aren’t the brightest so I am hoping that, if it is refused, they won’t have the nouse to think they can sit up there anyway. Hopefully they will just think they can’ have a balcony.

Also they are actually house proud and won’t be happy with the look of it staying as a flat roof with doors to nowhere. My dream is that it gets refused and they change it back to a window and pitched roof

Hi

Yes the flat roof dies pre date balcony. They have never used the roof as a balcony...... yet. They just put the railings up last October after which I reported them and they were told to get a retrospective in.

I believe they have had the roof strengthened

The council told us that to a certain extent you can do what you like in your own home. You can violate building regs in your home and they won’t know about it and will just let you get on with it (although obviously violating building regs and not having things signed off would create an issue that you’d have to fix if you wanted to sell).

The issue from their point of view, they said, arose when your violation of building regs puts others at risk. Which is what our balcony did. Because the lack of railing meant stuff could fall off and bop someone on the head. The neighbours had complained about our railing being down, it was windy and and stuff had fallen off our roof onto their front drive. The council threatened to serve us an enforcement notice unless we either replaced the railing or stopped using the roof.

Thanks sosigdog

That is what I thought my council would be like. I will remember the points you have raised and challenge my council if the need arises

Thanks for your help

It's a frustratingly slow process and one that's staring you in the face every time you look out of your window.

So slow a neighbour of mine put up something against planning rules to benefit him whilst building something else and by the time it was enforced he took it down anyway as the other work was done. So ugly and annoying whilst it was there.

You have done what you can, objected and had the officer visit, to a certain degree you need to await the decision which more than likely will be to refuse if the overlooking is that bad (not questioning your judgement but obv without visiting we don't really know). TBH I haven't read the whole tread as to weather this could go to full committee or be a delegated decision, or whether you have been onto your ward councillor who can try to get it at full committee if the officer is minded to approve.

I'm surprised at the previous post, I think it was actually Building Control rather than planning that requested railing reinstating, safety is not a planning issue, planning wouldn't get involved if someone complained it was unsafe, also whether the roof is strong enough to stand on. An example of different legislations not joining up maybe and confusing for the public but the way it is unfortunately.

What's in the local plan etc is largely irrelevant in a case like this, general polices will say things like 'respect neighbouring amenity' and 'in character of the area'. Policies won't be specific enough to say no balconies on x house, its interpretation for the officers as ALL applications are different and assessed on individual merits.