Advice on buying a grade II listed property

[MGrey]

Looking to buy our first property and we've seen a grade II listed cottage which needs quite a bit of internal work. New kitchen, new back french doors, new carpets, new bannisters on landing and stairs, updating of the bathroom and ensuite, new front door, and the windows are misting so new glass in the windows. Would it be unreasonable to put an offer in 40k below the 140k asking price?

Also another quick question, the dining room leads into the kitchen via 2 steps and doorway, seen as it's a graded building what are the chances of getting planning consent to move the kitchen into the dining room and then knocking through part of the wall to create an opening to give it a more open plan feel. Bearing in mind the kitchen is quite small and looks like it has been an extension in itself.

Sorry for the long winded post. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Oooh no way. I agree with jcscot. This has dodgy and money pit written all over it.

Those (ugly) windows are definitely not legit and they've moved the kitchen with no permission by the sounds of things

Run a mile

Op, I had a house with windows like this and they were popular in the seventies and eighties, there is a good chance they predate the listing. Ask your solicitor to ask when they were installed.

You don't need permission.to move your kitchen, if you think about it, a kitchen is a temporary fixture it can be removed, it's just cupboards and stuff, it doesn't change the fabric of the building.. The important thing is the consent for the extension at the back, it's irrelevant what it's used for. Your solicitor needs to check it was built in accordance to plans and permission.

So far, there is a good chance it's fine, your solicitor needs to get the details, when the Windows were Installed, when the sun room was built, was it built in line with permission etc.

Jiggly, I think you're wrong, you defo don't need permission to put a kitchen in, mo more than you need to to put your sofa in, and if rhe windows predate the listing in 83 they are fine.

Oh I didn't mean they needed permission to put a kitchen in but that if they got PP for a conservatory and that's not what they built, then that could be troublesome.

I spent ££ trying to buy a house with an extension that hadn't had PP and it was a bloody nightmare. I'm a big fan of easy. And not of the sunk cost fallacy

So just to clarify if we did get the solicitor to clarify everything and all was legit. We could in fact move the kitchen out of the sun room/conservatory and into the dining room which is where it most likely was originally without applying for permission?

Yes, absolutely. A kitchen doesn't change the fabric of the building, you can use any room as you please. its when uou change the fabric,,,add extensions, knock things down, remove original features you need permission,,,

Your solicitor will request all permissions and do all the searches. Don't worry. You should also point out the windows and sunroom to him/ her to ensure they check.

I wouldn't be overly concerned. Solicitors are used to dealing with it. You will get all rhe info before you exchange. If it's not good, you don't need to proceed even if you've offered, as long as you've not exchanged.

Thank you everyone for all the input and information it's given us much to consider and be wary of 😥

I don't have much more to add except to say that having had a listed house, I would never do so again. It's such a bugger to get anything done, and the vagueness of listings means that it is nigh on impossible to predict. At the very least, get a planning officer round before you buy.

Thank you for that. We definitely will. We don't know anyone who has a listed property so it's been so helpful getting input from people who are in the know and have experience in dealing with them. Any input is very much welcome.

Windows- they don't look that old to me. I'd be extremely cautious. If there is no reference of any permission being granted, you should assume they are unauthorised. This will cost you £1000s.

Bannister- if it's historic you will struggle to get permission to get it changed. If it is allowed it will be bespoke and not a B&Q off the peg spindles job.

Kitchen, it depends on what the work entails. New plumbing, external pipe work, knocking out walls, taking up floors will need permission.

It's also things like, you can't just replatsering- it has to be lime plaster etc.

Front door- if it's historic it will be difficult to get permission to replace. Looking a bit old and rusty isn't a reason to do that.

Sorry op but I think there are huge issues. You need to love the house as it is.

Thank you OliviaBenson I appreciate the input. If we decide to proceed then we will be getting the solicitor to check the windows aswell as the extension applied for as a conservatory/sunroom where the modern but rotting kitchen is currently being housed. We would like to find out where the original kitchen was and put it back to its original position if possible or at the very least put in a kitchen that is more in keeping with the property.

I have attached an image of the landing bannister and I don't believe it is original to the house. After researching houses from that period, bannisters were far more traditional carved spindles and that is exactly what we would want to put back in.

It is a reason to replace the front door if it's a safety issue which I have stated above. We are fully aware we have to replace like for like.

We do love this house which is why were putting so much time into researching if we could be the people to lovingly restore it back to a beautiful period home or not but that does not mean you are not allowed to put your own mark on it or adapt it slightly within reason and bounds to create an even more beautiful period home as many have done before us.

It's not me that you have to persuade! You really do need to go into this with your eyes open.

Could you live with single glazing again if that's what the council insist on (when they see the windows are plastic?)

The bannister does look modern so I can't imagine you have much issue there. Saying that, it seems that lots of modern works have taken place- be really careful.

The door- I obviously haven't seen it but you may not be allowed to replace like for like. If it's got things like traditional ironwork etc you will need to restore it. I'm not sure what your safety concerns are but with any listed building (historic bits!) have a repair first motto.

I wouldn't touch it if I were you.

It might be worth you looking at the listed building property owners club for advice on specialist surveyors etc.

Whilst to move/install new kitchen cupboards etc does not in theory require listed building consent, if there is anything associated with that move that requires changes to fabric of building (new gas supply through wall, hiding pipes in walls, extractor fan vent to outside wall, boiler vent, kitchen waste through wall) you will require consent.

Also, even restoring something back to how it should be (those bannisters for example) will require listed building consent, which in itself involves heritage statement, scale plans, submitting details of the material and finish etc.

A pre-app visit (before you buy) would be ideal but a) many authorities charge for this (mine is £100) b) the vendors may not permit it (if they have unauthorised work), c) if the work is unauthorised and your solicitor recommends you get an indemnity policy to cover any future enforcement action for the previous owner's work, a pre-app visit before you own the property would obviously preclude this option.

I think you're getting some mis information here.

As said, if the windows were in before the listing it's fine.
The bannister yes, I'd ask about that, doesn't look modern to me either.
Door you don't have to repair, you can replace and they will advise on what is appropriate.
Kitchen you can move without consent and uou don't need to knock holes in the wall to do so.
The plaster doesn't need to be lime plaster unless that's what's already there. I'm not sure though how they would know, once it's painted you can't tell the difference.

origami is correct about the kitchen issue. If works are required to the fabric of the building LBC will be required.

You can't always replace things - repair is usually seen as the first option.

A heritage expert will be able to tell what type of plaster is used - tat is why they visit the premises as part of any application.

Also, although the bannister is not "historical" in that it does not date from when the house was built, if it pre-dates the listing, it forms part of the listing and therefore would need permission to change to anything more "appropriate" - they might not grant permission. That happened to neighbours of ours a few years ago - they were refused permission to change the roof and windows on a flat-roofed kitchen extension built in the 50s. Although their plans were to match the original historic building, permission was refused as the 50s extension was regarded as historic in its own right.

So, just because something isn't original to when the house was built, doesn't mean that it isn't covered by the listing.

As for whether moving the kitchen requires planning, our local authority wouldn't require planning permission for a replacement kitchen (like for like) but they would require permission if I had wanted to move it from one room to another.

Your local authority may take another view but certainly you need to ask these questions. I'm not sure you're being given misinformation per se but more that different authorities and different planning officers will take varying positions on what permissions they will grant.

It is an incredibly subjective area, basically.

You're very right jcscot it really is a subjective area. LA website, heritage website even the lbpoc website all have similar advice and suggestions yet what I've received here seems so contradictory, possibly more due to opinion. I think a more in depth conversation with our planning officer will definitely be the best idea.

It's only a Grade II house though, so I don't think the PO will be bothered about the bannister, unless it in some strange way holding up the house.

As I have been saying since you started this thread, just talk to the PBO, op. Really they are the only ones who will actually know what they'll allow and what they won't.

Jux I really hope it's not! 😂 Most definitely, the PO is definitely our next port of call.

Hey, buying a listed building does require more thought, but I wouldn't let that put you off necessarily. We live in an old farmhouse/converted workshop and stables which was built in 1703. It is grade 2 listed. As far as I'm aware, we can make updates internally without permission (upgrading kitchen and bathroom for example) but have got to get permission for anything that would change the exterior look or the floor plan, including extensions. We could not knock walls down or change the door height etc
Our windows are wooden framed, and when we moved in, they were rotting aware. The price to fully replace was extortionate (about £50,000) so we hired a workman to spend 3 weeks repairing, rebuilding, painting and waterproofing the frames. I do think when people/builders/contractors hear you live in a listed house, they assume you have a lot of money and put their prices up. I don't know whether others who own a listed property would agree?
Like other users have said, we have to get specially written home insurance as our rebuild cost is so high. This is more expensive. Also, our heating costs are high - we currently pay about £210 a month just for gas, but are hoping to reduce this to £160 once our new bills and useage come through.
You also have to consider whether you can live with quirky details. Throughout our house, the ceilings are low, as are some doorways - my husband has to duck to get through two of them.
Finally, think about whether you want to be in it long term. Listed buildings are not for everyone. You need to commit to the maintenance costs and also have to consider that it may not sell quickly, due to covenants, restrictions or things a surveyor might pick up on.
We've been in ours for 5 years now, I love it. However, at one point, it was up for sale as I just wanted a simple house that didn't cost a furtune to run and maintain. We've taken it off the market though, as nothing compared to what we've got when we started looking at other, relatively 'normal' houses. I just couldn't imagine being in a characterless box. We have had to make sacrifices though in order to live in our home - we both work full time (I'd love to work part time and be more involved in my daughters school) to cover mortgage and running costs, and I'll only be able to afford to take 9 month maternity once our new baby arrives in Jan. Our cars could do with upgrading and we don't always go on fancy holidays, as inevitably, there is a job to be done at home.
The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages - and at Christmas time, I couldn't think of a better house to live in. X