Advice on buying a grade II listed property

[MGrey]

Looking to buy our first property and we've seen a grade II listed cottage which needs quite a bit of internal work. New kitchen, new back french doors, new carpets, new bannisters on landing and stairs, updating of the bathroom and ensuite, new front door, and the windows are misting so new glass in the windows. Would it be unreasonable to put an offer in 40k below the 140k asking price?

Also another quick question, the dining room leads into the kitchen via 2 steps and doorway, seen as it's a graded building what are the chances of getting planning consent to move the kitchen into the dining room and then knocking through part of the wall to create an opening to give it a more open plan feel. Bearing in mind the kitchen is quite small and looks like it has been an extension in itself.

Sorry for the long winded post. Any advice would be much appreciated.

They are decorative stained glass mullion triple glazed windows.

Sorry and it looks like upvc.

We're in a Georgian Grade II. Our windows still have mostly original glass, which is lovely, very thin, and slightly wobbly to look through as gravity works its force over 200 odd years. They are irreplacable - building regs mean that you can't get panes that thin any more.

The frames are the original wood, too. We can't afford to replace them, but wouldn't be allowed to do anything but have new hardwood frames specially made. So we desperately paint them every year, and fill them and do god-knows-what to them to keep them going and house water-proof!

Listed buildings are expensive to maintain. We've been here 11 years, and just maintaining it, the house is a money pit! I often dream of living in a nice modern everything works type house, and forgo the high ceilings, beautifully proportioned rooms!

UPVC windows are usually a no-no for a listed building. |Mine have to be wooden and a specified number of bars/panes.

It sounds as if the windows were replaced without listed building consent.

If the windows have been replaced without consent, that's an expensive mistake to fix!

It looks like upvc but I could be wrong have attached a picture apologies it's not very clear.

Be very careful. If work has been done to it already without consent then you can find yourself liable for restitution to original state.

Jux, we have a Georgian facade with original irreplaceable sashes and we have a lovely carpenter who's been able to replace and fill individual spars, saving the glass. The back of the house is even older (weaver's cottage built c1700) so we have a quirky layout with cottage-y beams at the back and Georgian (facade added sometime around 1805 or so) proportions at the front. It's a tardis of a house - looks tiny from the front but takes over four floors with a lot of space.

Can we find out about the windows before an offer is made?

Probably not (if the sellers put them in or are aware that there's no permission, they'll be inclined to fob you off). That's the sort of question that comes up as part of the searches by your lawyer - your survey (make sure you get a full structural survey by a firm that deals with historic bulldings regularly, not just the mortgage valuation survey) will definitely pick up on the windows being "not in keeping".

However, it may not be doom and gloom - it dependa when the property was listed. If it was listed after UPVC windows had been installed, then you'll be OK as they'll form part of the listing.

You'll only be up the creek if you find they were put in without permission.

I'd be worried about those windows. They do look like upvc. If they are they won't have permission and will cost a bomb to put back to original. I wonder if this is something to do with why the offer fell through before.

I'd speak to the agent and say you want a planning officer to come round and see what you can do with the kitchen and dining room and any offer is subject to it, then I'd have him/her look at the windows, if the seller won't permit it you know they have done work without permission and your offer would need to reflect that.

The door would need to be replaced like for like so could be expensive and I'm not sure about the banisters. They sound like something from the sixties and could also be a bodge job. I'd be very careful if I was you.

You might be able to find out about the windows, if permission was sought and granted, then it will be on the Council site (or at least, they'd be able to tell you).

As jcscot says, if they were done before the listing then you've no problems.

jcscott, your house sounds fabulous! I think we may have found a chap a bit like your builder; he did the last repair, fill and paint job on our windows, and was great. Whether he'll agree to do it again is a different matter - it's a really hard house to get at being surrounded by an almost moat so scaffolding is complicated! Also 4 storeys above ground and two below.

Agree, if they were put in before listing then it's fine, the seller should be able to prove that. When does heritage England say it was listed?

We live in a listed building and the heritage lady said we could do whatever we liked to the inside but not touch shop front or sash windows.

If we replace windows it must be like for like which will be expensive.

You really can't compare what was OK in one building and assume it will be OK in all Listed buildings. They are all different, Listed for different reasons, have had different things done in the past etc. Anything that is seen as effecting the historic or architectural value of the building can require an application for Listed Building Consent.

Jux - a moat? Wow! My boys would love that!!

Get a full survey done by someone who specialises in buildings of that period. )(There is a historic buildings association who might help you identify someone but can't remember their name). Work backwards. Find the surveyor and then check he is on your mortgage company panel. Far better than having any Joe Bloggs allocated. Then go with him when he does the survey. Almost all survey reports of old buildings read like disasters, but Georgians did not do damp courses. A surveyor will cover themselves when writing but will be more open in person. Plus tell you what works are essential, what are not. A specialist surveyor should know something about planning constraints.

If you can't get the mortgage company to agree to your chosen surveyor, pay them for the minimum valuation survey and pay your guy for the full survey.

I think your offer is far too low on an already reduced property.

I think OP realises that w can't speak for her building or her Council, we're just giving her an idea of things to think about.

Bluntness100 it was listed in 1983

Does it mention the windows on the listing? The listing for our house mentions the sash windows.

It states: first floor sill band; moulded stone eaves, stone slate roofs. Each front has a 3 light square mullioned flush framed window on both floors and single light windows above doorway. Most have leaded circa 1900 casements.

The row of 4 houses is included in the whole listing

Just an update, found planing permissions on the property granted in the 90s for a conservatory/sunroom to be added to the back. Strangely this is where the kitchen is currently situated. Clearly the kitchen has been moved with no planning permission applied for. As this structure didn't exist till the 90s and there have been no applications put in since.

Run a mile!! Sounds like there might be an illegal kitchen extension and illegal windows. Both of these could cost you a fortune to put back to original status, which could be demanded of you. You might get lucky and get retrospective planning permission but you might not.

Actually, the fact it says "most have c 1900 casements" might (only just might!) mean that your windows predate the listing. However the kitchen extension would certainly give me pause.