Listed building consent issue - please help!

[TheTeaFairy]

I'm trying to buy a Grade II listed Georgian townhouse with a rear extension consisting of a ground-floor utility room with first-floor bathroom above. The vendor has no knowledge/proof of when this extension was built. Our surveyor says the bathroom (first floor) was probably built pre 1950 (when the property was listed ) and the ground-floor utility room added later .

My question is: how do I ascertain that this extension is legal? Due to the fact that there is no time bar on enforcement action, I am concerned that if I need to repair the extension (likely) and apply for LBC to do so, the conservation officer may then say that it contravenes the listing and could insist on it being demolished.

The vendor does not seem keen to approach the council to obtain retrospective LBC for the extension. Our solicitor has suggested indemnity insurance but says that if at any point in the future I have to apply for LBC in order to carry out repairs, this would void the policy.

Has anyone been in a similar situation and did you find a solution? I LOVE the house but am wondering whether I should walk away . Without the extension it would be too small for my family.

TIA for any thoughts

PS Going out for a while but will be back later.

I'm still dithering about whether or not to contact the CO, tilder and BeautifulMaud, partly because it may get to the point where the only option is indemnity insurance for what it's worth, so I don't want to eliminate that as a last resort.

Will wait to see if the solicitors come up with anything this week.
I'm not so worried about prosecution really, although it is galling to think that in theory I could be prosecuted for something that I had no part in.

What worries me is the (however tiny) possibility of purchasing a property that doesn't have all the correct permissions. It's bonkers: all I want to do is make it look as beautiful and original (it's mostly fairly untouched) as possible.

Thanks so much everyone who's replied. It is helping me to understand what I'm dealing with.

SoupDragon, unfortunately many listed buildings have been altered without permission and it often only comes to light when the property is being sold. It would be much simpler if everyone always did the right thing and applied for LBC but they don't

TheTeaFairy I would get the vendor to contact the CO to ask the questions you have and get responses - then indemnity insurance should still be available to you should you need it as a last resort.

So the vendor getting in touch with the CO wouldn't invalidate any potential indemnity insurance? And who should take out the insurance, me or the vendor?

Thanks OhIfIMust

My estate agent and solicitor when buying our house said both should come from vendor. Indemnity should be in your name but vendor pay costs I think. I'm no expert though just been in exact same situation.

Indemnity in your name but vendor pays costs sounds familiar to me. We had to have indemnity insurance against various title issues over bits of land that weren't properly recorded and I think that's how it worked.

Cheers for the info about indemnity - I am exploring options

Www.old-maps.co.uk may show enough detail on some of the 1:2500 scale maps to see if an extension is present.

Many listings simply say "18th century, slate roof, 3 bay Windows, 5 chimney stacks" so no, councils don't have full details of every house and what's been done, they're not resourced for it.

this might help www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/legal-qa/our-listed-building-guilty-secret-is-out-33373.html

Cheers Pumping, that looks promising.

We bought a grade II listed building which had had tonnes done to it without listed building permission in the 1960s, with the added irony that all the work had been done by the council themselves.

We got the CO round before we bought the house - we were buying by auction though - and confirmed that we wouldn't be forced to reinstate stuff.

They were very laid back about it (but they were also relieved that we were returning it to one property rather than keeping it as flats).

In your situation, one thing you could do is find a good conservation architect who is used to dealing with local listed buildings (SPAB is a good place to start, and I think there is also a register of them somewhere). Take them round and get their opinion: they won't just be able to date the extension much more easily, but will also be used to dealing with the COs and can give you some pointers as to how they might react. We also did this and it was fantastically helpful.

Interesting article Maud, ta.

If I get to the point where I'm talking to the CO, hope s/he turns out to be as amenable as yours, Chop - sounds like a gem.

The only trouble is, that answer in the article is incorrect - you shouldn't go to a surveyor, few of them have any planning qualifications - you need a planner or a planning lawyer.

Hi, conservation architect (Architect Accredited in Building Conservation - AABC) will be more knowledgable about Listed Building Consent than a planner unless specialist. Other option is to look for a heritage consultant thro Institute of Building Conservation. They can help unpick when something may have been done, easiest cheapest thing would be to go to your local County Archives office and look through historic mapping and poss historic photos. Can also request info from Historic England and see what they have on file for the building as may have original survey report when listed or reviewed. Finally search the local authority for previous planning application s or listed building consent applications - they may have plans showing what was part of house and when.

Have I given away all my trade secrets yet?!

Really appreciate all the advice mistle and Pumping

I can see that the more information I have, the better, but don't I simply need to know definitively whether or not the property has LBC in its entirety?

Still waiting for the vendor to apply for retrospective LBC. Surely this is his responsibility?

BTW Pumping, thanks for the great tip about the council archives - am investigating.

Teafairy. I am a building's archaeologist and may be able to help using online resources. If you want on me the details and I'll take a look for you.

Listed buildings can have surprisingly little information and often the listing is the result of a cursory inspection of the exterior.

If you buy, I would recommend you join the Listed Building Society. I've found them really helpful for questions like this (and many more). I also have my insurance through their specialist - Lark Insurance.

I think it's OK to contact the council.

As has been mentioned above, indemnity insurance is invalidated if the policy holder alerts the authorities to the irregularities. However, before purchase you are not the policy holder. So long as the vendor had a competent solicitor when he bought, he should have such a policy. So it is entirely appropriate for you to find out the proper legal position before you commit financially. If you find out that all is well, you can go ahead. If you trigger a shitstorm the insurers pay out.

Gosh, there are a lot of knowledgeable people on MN!

I will update when I've made progress/a decision. Thanks everyone for all your help

I'd be FURIOUS if a prospective buyer contacted the council about my house tbh, before they owned it.

Last year we bought a grade 2 listed building in a conservation area and it has had a dodgy "conservatory" tacked on the end as well as a glorified lean-to which we call our "garden room."

We didn't see any consent for these during the conveyancing process. However, they're at the back of the house and you can't see them from the road. Bizarrely, we'd have to get consent to paint our front door!

Just because they're at the back of the house doesn't mean that they shouldn't have got planning permission and or listed building consent - two different things. But just because it's a listed building in a conservation area doesn't mean you can't get consent if you do the right thing - I got a large single storey 'garden room' and coackroom and hall extension to a Grade II Listed Building in a Conservation Area on an 18th century cottage in a central, very visible location in the centre of a village fairly recent - we simply got the design right and worked with the Conservation Officer.

That's one of the things that's worrying me Maud - and why I haven't contacted the council yet. Don't want to make a tricky situation worse.

Vanilla, that's obviously fine for now, but what happens if/when you ever need to repair the bits that previous owners have added on without LBC? Then you'd have to apply for permission, which might open a whole can of worms… not trying to worry you, but this is exactly what we're trying to mitigate against.

We seem to have similar approaches Mistlethrush

TBH OP, they need demolishing anyway, so I'd get a proper architect/plans/consent anyway... buy thanks for your convern