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Original poster

Listed building consent issue - please help!

79 replies

TheTeaFairy · 30/06/2016 10:29

I'm trying to buy a Grade II listed Georgian townhouse with a rear extension consisting of a ground-floor utility room with first-floor bathroom above. The vendor has no knowledge/proof of when this extension was built. Our surveyor says the bathroom (first floor) was probably built pre 1950 (when the property was listed Smile) and the ground-floor utility room added later Sad.

My question is: how do I ascertain that this extension is legal? Due to the fact that there is no time bar on enforcement action, I am concerned that if I need to repair the extension (likely) and apply for LBC to do so, the conservation officer may then say that it contravenes the listing and could insist on it being demolished.

The vendor does not seem keen to approach the council to obtain retrospective LBC for the extension. Our solicitor has suggested indemnity insurance but says that if at any point in the future I have to apply for LBC in order to carry out repairs, this would void the policy.

Has anyone been in a similar situation and did you find a solution? I LOVE the house but am wondering whether I should walk away Sad. Without the extension it would be too small for my family.

TIA for any thoughts Flowers

PS Going out for a while but will be back later.

OP posts:
Original poster
TheTeaFairy · 30/06/2016 15:06

PS In case I do go ahead, would any of you who live in a listed property be willing to recommend your insurance company? I've done some online research but am finding it hard to work out which one is best.

Thank you Smile

OP posts:
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 30/06/2016 15:10

We are with NFU and so is my dad who lives in a grade 2* listed one.
We haven't ever made a claim though, so I can't really say what they'd be like when push comes to shove!

Original poster
TheTeaFairy · 30/06/2016 15:30

Thank you The Countess

OP posts:
mollie123 · 01/07/2016 05:57

I am with Home Protect - who were quite reasonable (although still more than an unlisted property ) - other insurance companies will insure your listed home - this is just my opinion. !

Original poster
TheTeaFairy · 01/07/2016 08:06

TVM mollie

OP posts:
OhIfIMust · 01/07/2016 12:24

We got ours through an insurance brokers - WB Baxters - which worked out significantly cheaper for us but may not in other cases.

Original poster
TheTeaFairy · 01/07/2016 13:50

Cheers OhIfIMust.

Does anyone else have any pearls of wisdom about my dilemma?

OP posts:
origamiwarrior · 01/07/2016 15:25

My only pearl of wisdom would be that I wouldn't approach the council (before you own the house) unless it was anonymously (and they couldn't work it out by narrowing down the listed houses in their patch who are currently on the market by looking at the details on Rightmove etc...).

As you've noted, there is no time limit on enforcement action for listed buildings, and enforcement for listed buildings includes custodial sentences. Obviously it's highly unlikely they would imprison someone who didn't actually do the work, but you are still opening up the vendor to a whole shitstorm of mess. And presumably, since he is unconcerned about the issue, he doesn't have indemnity insurance himself (which is what he would rely on in the event of an enforcement).

But first go back to your surveyor and ask how the first floor can predate the ground floor - that's a new one on me! Unless he means the utility fittings are more recent, and it was a scullery originally. In which case, if he's confident the structure existed pre the listing in 1950's, then the fact it has been changed from a scullery to a utility room shouldn't matter (for the purposes of the listing), and you can't be forced to take it down.

peggyundercrackers · 01/07/2016 15:55

I think most COs are reasonable and realistic about things and are pretty laid back - at least they are in Scotland where we live. these buildings have to be lived in, they aren't there to be looked at and kept in the manner they were built. we bought an old house in the conservation area and our CO told us we can pretty much do what we want. there was some issues but we pointed out that's the way the house was built and we weren't going to change it because it broke todays regulations - the surveyor agreed and so did the CO - they said they needed to have the discussion just so everyone was aware of these issues even though we weren't going to fix them - pointless conversations tbh and it was a waste of time these issues being on the survey but its all about back covering nowadays.

some of friends live in grade 2 listed buildings and they pretty much do what they want - they have all been threatened with enforcement many times over the last 10 yrs but the council never takes it any further, they just seem to make noise about it then forget about it for a few years then come back and make a noise again and go round in that circle over and over again.

obviously in other areas COs may be different but where we are nothing happens if you break the rules.

Original poster
TheTeaFairy · 01/07/2016 16:04

That's helpful origamiwarrior - I've been dithering about ringing the CO for that reason. I will go back to the surveyor.

I feel encouraged by your experience peggy - am still hoping we can resolve this Smile

OP posts:
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 01/07/2016 16:25

Do you know what kind of a reputation the CO has in your area? Mine is reasonable too but I have heard stories from other areas....

Original poster
TheTeaFairy · 01/07/2016 16:41

No idea… but guess I'd better not say in case it outs the property…?

OP posts:
mistlethrush · 01/07/2016 16:53

Can you see any plans which show the house - there are some historical map sites that have plans on which might show whether the house was extended or not... If it was a normal house lacking permission for an extension dating back more than 10 years it would not be a problem as you could apply for a certificate to confirm that it was now lawful development - but because it's a listed building you can't do that. I had one potential job stop because, due to the lack of historical permission for an old extension to the rear of a cottage and thus problem in getting a new Listed Building consent for the new proposals.

peggyundercrackers · 01/07/2016 17:24

if you go into your council office and meet with the planning officer they should be able to show you the original plans and give you copies if you want. when we moved in we went into our local office and they were able to give us plans right back to changes being made in 1937 and all the subsequent plans when the house was changed in the 40s, the 60s and the 70s and we got copies of all the changes - the copies came at a cost but at least we could see what changes had been made. these copies were not online but in their archives.

Original poster
TheTeaFairy · 01/07/2016 17:51

Good idea Mistle I'm now searching online for historical maps of the area.

Will definitely do that if we manage to buy it Peggy. I'm a bit baffled because our solicitor has asked the council for any historic planning applications and there are none. However, I suppose there could still be some ancient plans lurking somewhere.

OP posts:
origamiwarrior · 02/07/2016 07:59

That's a genius idea about the maps - also go to this website and enter the postcode:

www.getmapping.com/products/high-resolution-aerial-imagery/aerial-data-historical-imagery

There was a big project in the 1940s to map the UK from the air, so you might be able to see if your extension existed then.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 02/07/2016 09:10

Ooh, Origami!
Maps are such a good idea. You never know what's out there, especially for towns. For our house there is one online from 1850 that is so detailed it shows not only the outline of the house but also the position of lamp posts in the street and flowerbeds and large trees in the garden.

Original poster
TheTeaFairy · 02/07/2016 10:48

I've found some fascinating photos of the area from 1950 and even further back but it's difficult to see the house in enough detail to tell whether or not the extension existed then. Thanks you lovely people Flowers

Think this will come down to the vendor/solicitors sorting it out between them if they can - I haven't given up hope yet!

OP posts:
tilder · 02/07/2016 22:05

I would arrange to speak to the CO. A good relationship with them is essential going forward. If there are problems, better to find out now rather than later. We had lots of chats before completion.

Ours is 2*. We knew some changes had been consented, others definitely hadn't. We reached an agreement in writing that they wouldn't pursue any unconsented works but future work would need consent and would involve reinstatement. Eg new roof tiles would need to be slate but no need to change until required.

There was also work where it wasn't clear if it predated the listing or not. He put in writing that although it was uncertain, no action would be taken.

So we basically started with a clean slate. We have a very good relationship and all applications have been approved. Nothing too outrageous applied for though!

tilder · 02/07/2016 22:16

Should have said (after that epic postBlush) I would not buy a listed building without meeting the CO. It may cost a bit, they may be prickly (they get ranted at a lot by home owners) but it's money and time very well spent.

Just remember that they are in it for the house. Not for you or how you want to live. Not for building regs or energy conservation. Don't buy a listed building thinking you can do what you want to it. You can't. But they are beautiful, amazing places to live in.

BeautifulMaudOHara · 03/07/2016 00:15

Don't approach the council or CO if you don't own the house, that would be very inappropriate and rude IMO.

Building regs are irrelevant as they only last a certain period after the work was done.

LBC is different though and there is no time limit on prosecution.

You could ask the vendor to buy an indemnity policy which would indemnify you against future action but they will only be able to buy this if you or they have NOT already approached the council or CO.

Bear in mind that it's very difficult to find out what it looked like before the extension was done so if you can't find out then how would the CO be able to?

Also prosecutions are v rare as councils have to know who to prosecute and in your case we are talking about work carried out many, many years ago.

IIWY I'd buy it and get the CO around straight after you've bought, asking for their advice, which you'll have probably to pay for.

If you've just bought they'd be on an extremely sticky wicket trying to prosecute you as it would fail in court since you could prove you didn't carry out the work and the onus is on them to prove you did. They're just not going to do it tbh so the risk to you is low.

I'd probably haggle on price thoigh and ask for the indemnity but go ahead anyway if they won't provide it.

BeautifulMaudOHara · 03/07/2016 00:17

Also bear in mind that they're stricter about grade 1 or grade 2* than they are about grade 2

SoupDragon · 03/07/2016 07:15

Bear in mind that it's very difficult to find out what it looked like before the extension was done so if you can't find out then how would the CO be able to?

I imagine they have access to planning and listing records don't they?

BeautifulMaudOHara · 03/07/2016 08:53

Hmm, I can't believe any council still has records from the 50s though.

SoupDragon · 03/07/2016 10:00

There would be very little point in listing buildings if they don't keep records of the listing and any changes.

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