Kitchen plans - comments please!

[PingPongBat]

Here's the overhead of my first draft kitchen plan. (I've cut the bottom off as it's got my home address on it!).

We've got a new utility room being built into the back end of the garage with a connecting door from the kitchen. This door could be moved to the right, so that it opens into the corner of the utility room instead, but it has to stay on this wall as there's nowhere else it will go in the house.

The door at the top right leads into the garden.
The doors at the bottom of the plan are, from left to right - utility room, cupboard under stairs (has 3 shelves which are currently used as a sort of larder cupboard), & door into the hall.

Washing machine / tumble dryer will be in the utility room.

My current concerns are:

• lack of counter space to the left of the hob
• do the oven and fridge freezer have to be separated by a cupboard? At the moment we have them next to each other but the designer recommended we change this
• fridge freezer is a bit tucked away in the corner, so...
• would putting the oven right next to the utility room door, thus freeing up some counter space to the left of the hob, & then putting a wide fridge freezer where the cupboards are in between the doors, be a more practical layout?

As you can see I've already got some thoughts on potential changes, but I'd be interested to hear anyone else's

I agree, push the oven unit to the far end of that wall, move the hob at least a whole unit to the left so you have a good prep area to right of hob not a cramped corner. My layout is similar and I manage with 500mm to L of hob but 1.3m right of hob to corner which is a great spread-out-and-bake space, but I sacrificed a tall oven unit to get this.

Fridge between the two doors is fine and handy for table.

Will you fit out cupboard under stairs as a pantry or do you need another larder unit either next to fridge unit or in utility?

Need to give attention to which way the utility door is hinged so it doesn't interfere with what's either side of it, also make it as narrow as reasonable.
otherwise I think it works well, will you have crockery drawers R of the dishwasher?

Is the fridge integrated in which case the housing will insulate it from the oven and negate the need for a cupboard. Can you get a wider wall unit to line up with the edge of the counter on the top side of the plan? I agree that there is not much counter space - as you have a utility room, how about having a chest freezer in there and an undercounter fridge in the kitchen? I don't really like freestanding fridges standing on their own. Possibly you could make a recess into the utility room so that it sits in a sort of nook which I would find much more acceptable but you might think was a bit too much like hard work to win my approval .

*I don't really like fridges standing on their own which your one would if you stuck it between the utility and larder doors.

Without sizes it's tricky to tell exactly - but something like this might work !? Gives you much more work space !

Will you fit out cupboard under stairs as a pantry or do you need another larder unit either next to fridge unit or in utility?

• it's currently a sort of pantry with 3 shelves. The problem is that it's not as big as you might expect - the ceiling of the cupboard angles down away from you, just inside the door, because of the stairs. It's hard to describe but basically it isn't very practical as it has a sloping ceiling. We're wondering what to do with it tbh, perhaps a cupboard for jackets / brollies etc as we're losing the coat cupboard by the front door to make way for a downstairs loo (which is currently in the kitchen and is being removed). I'd love a tall pull out larder unit if we can fit it in.

will you have crockery drawers R of the dishwasher?

• Yes I think so, handy for the table and dining room, plus glasses / mugs etc. counter top there is currently has water filter jug / kettle / coffee machine / bread machine / phone / post / keys / junk! Hoping to get an integrated filter tap (very hard water area here) so we can bin the filter jug. We've discounted a boiling tap, too expensive.

Fridge isn't integrated - I'm not keen on them as they tend to have less space. I'm leaning towards moving the fridge to the wall between the doors.

OnePlan - interesting idea! at this point I should clarify that the space where you've put seating, is where we currently have a downstairs loo..., so the space where you've put in base cabinets is where the oven and fridge freezer is now. Does that make sense! We are taking it out to make the kitchen more spacious. The width of our current kitchen is currently about 1 metre, and we want more than that, so I'm not sure it would work.

Absolutely no way I'd have an under counter fridge, it would drive me mad. We are all approaching 6 foot tall so it would be a nightmare.

Cupboard at the top of the plan (next to window) can't be wider than that, as there is a boxed in waste pipe coming down from the bathroom upstairs just to the right of it. We could build around it but it wouldn't give much more space and would need to be custom built.

Where would you put the bin? It's currently a freestanding one by the back door but I'd like it hidden away - one of those 3 section bins for recycling, composting and residual waste.

If you can fit an integrated FF and a pullout larder (or unit with inner-drawers) in the space between your doors it would look more tidy even if doors are not the same width. It will stick out into the room a bit but since it's only the utility corner probably not the end of the world. In fact why not a tall integrated fridge, say 1500 tall and the freezer in the utility room? Then you get another metre of cupboard space.

Ikea have good solutions for recycling/bins in a high front pullout (under sink?) that are easy to copy with other kitchen brands. 800 unit would be wide enough.

If you are tall watch out for cooker hood being set too low so you can't see your hob - I've seen this in someone's house.

Yes, that's a great idea - we're going for one of these type of cooker hoods - in fact it's about the only decision we've definitely made!

Interesting idea to have a fridge freezer & slim larder cupboard between the doors. I don't think it would stick out, I've seen friends kitchens where they have units here and it looks fine.

I was contemplating a wider than standard fridge (but not American style), our neighbours have a Fisher and Paykel one which they love. A fridge freezer in the garage is a definite, we already have one as we never have enough space in the kitchen one. It will be on the left as you walk in - the utility room door hinges will be on the right, so the door swings open into the utility room, in front of the boiler in the other corner.

Going to the see the people who drew this up today & will get some measurements.

@PingPongBat

Hello again.

Yes you have similar issues to me. Now all kitchen units are 60cm, so I'll assume the small cupboards are 30cm.

Firstly in my last place we had an integrated double oven next to a integrated fridge with no issues so you could lose that small cupboard.

The simplest solution IMO would be to push the hob 30cm down so you have 60cm prep space to the right of the hob.

For maximum worktop gain you could move the oven unit to where the fridge is and put the fridge where the cupboard is..

If you don't want to move the fridge you could fit in a 90cm or 100cm range instead. Its not integrated but it includes the hodb so will take up an extra 30-40cm work space, but you will lose the tall oven unit regaining 60cm plus the 30cm small cupboard.

hope that makes sense.

Are all the units standard sizes or is there an option to have some made bespoke? Maybe you could save some crucial mm near the hob this way?

I second what fabtigger says. I would replace the built in oven with a range and have 90m pan drawers (you get more in them than cupboards and you need as much storage as poss by your description and it would give you a lot more prep space.

My worry on the prep space is the corner aspect, my previous kitchen had this and it is practically not very easy to prep in a corner, otherwise you are prepping all the way past the sink on the right. You could then either go for a cupboard over the top or leave it free or go with some open shelving.

I second fisher and paykel btw, my new fridge freezer is one of theirs. The best bit is that ice cream comes out perfectly ready to eat from the top freezer drawer, it was a revelation!

Yes, under counter ovens / a range cooker would definitely free up counter space, but I’ve been trying to avoid this if I can.

Although I manage perfectly fine with a low level food carousel at the moment, squatting down to get small things out, I think I might struggle with a low level oven & lifting out big dishes. I’m tall and have had life-long back problems . Although I’m OK at the moment, if this is to be my kitchen for the next 20 years then I need to consider this. On another thread there was a variety of views on high and low level ovens, and my instinct is to try and keep high level if I possibly can. I can see the advantages in terms of counter space, of course, but I’m worried about my back in the long term.

I agree that a corner prep space would be a bad idea.

Not sure if unit sizes are all set widths – will ask the kitchen people later.

Just had a thought – where do people hang hand / tea towels?!! We have a slot with a rail which we hate, so just end up hanging them over the oven handles.

For ergonomics is some food for thought.

if you built in your bins to a cupboard, then just screw a £3 Ikea rail to the end of the run of units for tea towels.

@PingPongBat

Sounds like the wall mounted over is really important. In which cas I would put that in the cornerwhere fridge is, and put the fridge where the cupboard is.

How deep are the cupboards between the doors?

How about if the integrated fridge went to the right of the window instead? Not sure how close an oven and fridge can sit together anyway??

Raisingsteam – that’s brilliant - thanks for the link
That last drawer she's rummaging around in is like our man drawer… but I’m the one who’s usually scrabbling around in it. We will definitely have drawers wherever we can at base level.

Fridge & oven next to each other – apparently this is not a problem. They are so well insulated these days that it doesn't affect performance that much, only an issue if you have the fridge & oven doors open at the same time. We've lived with ours next to each other for 20 years and only occasionally come across this.

Fridge freezer next to the window - I think DH & I ruled this out but I can’t remember why. Perhaps because we wanted to keep the counter space to the right of the sink? Which is currently used for kettle / coffee machine etc. But we hadn't taken into account the new worktop which we gain between the doors at the bottom of the plan, which I've got my eye on for a possible tea & coffee making space.

Fridge freezer between the doors at the bottom - I'm wondering whether we will create a sort of visual barrier from the door to the hob area…? We want it to feel as spacious as possible so we might regret putting it there – it would be 600mm deep up to eye level and above, bringing the perimeter in.

The cupboards between the doors are are 600mm deep base units & 300mm deep wall cupboards. Total about 900mm wide.

Very interesting chat with kitchen man today.

We talked about simply losing the larder cupboard between the fridge and oven, thus gaining 300mm of worktop along that hand wall. I still wouldn’t have the same continuous straight run of worktop as I have now though, unless the hob was up right up against the oven (which would look unbalanced I think) and/or we push the sink to the right by 200mm (which is a possibility).

Kitchen man has suggested putting the hob by the window instead. This would create a really big run of worktop space from the oven round to the sink, and we could keep the larder cupboard between the fridge freezer & oven. While it solves the worktop issue, I have to say I’m not convinced, probably because I’ve always cooked at the other end of the kitchen and I think it would feel very odd! But he’s going to re-draw the plans like this so we can have a look at it like that anyway.

If you google for "blum dynamic space" you get to a website showing an order of laying out kitchens for maximum efficiency. It's kind of like an improvement on the "work triangle" thing. You can't always make it work depending on your room constraints but it's helpful.

I'm not sure I agree with your designer. I find it works very well having a kind of decent sized cooking/prep area to one side of the sink , leading to the cooker, and a kind of snack/drink/breakfast/toast area to the other side which can have gadgets on it leaving the other area free. Then your drink area is next to the sink, kettle, spoons, cups and dishwasher, the only thing you will move for is milk. My theory is that whatever else is happening you can always get in to make a cuppa! It also means the hot/messy zone of the kitchen is furthest from the table. Ideally the fridge larder would be closer but it's only a few steps.

To keep it spacious, keep the tall units to one area or the corner and not where they will block light. It's only the oven that is a bit tucked away which doesn't matter too much. As long as you have 500-600mm between oven and hob to put things down it should be OK.

Try to clear your mind of what you do now. You have the chance to do what will work best.

Also, , I too think you could put thefrdge by the back door.

In addition, the cupboard under the stairs does not sound like a great thing. Could you change it so you access that space from elsewhere (the hall or utility) and then you have additional wall space instead of the door. You could then house a big fridge freezer with a tall larder drawer either side on that bottom wall.

ChopOrNot filling in the cupboard door is a really good idea. In fact I'm starting to think it might be the answer

Although the kitchen man said he thought adding a full height unit between the doors might make it feel less spacious, I'm not so sure it will be such an issue. We're going to have just over 2 metres of floor space from top to bottom of the plan, with gloss units to reflect the light, & we get lots of sunlight from the middle of the day as it's west facing. I think the fridge freezer between window and back door would be a bad idea as it will make the sink area feel closed in. We've only got 800mm between the window and an annoying set of boxed-in downpipes from the bathroom.

I agree that a hob by the back door would be too close to the eating area, and too far from the main food prep area. I like chopping veg & then just throwing stuff straight into a pan without having to move more than a step away!

RaisingSteam I'm trying to work out your annotations - LF = larder fridge between the doors at the bottom, O = oven in the corner, then a space? Or larder cupboard? Then hob. And at the top, K&T is where you'd have coffee making, kettle etc?

I think... if we block up that under stairs cupboard door (750mm) put larder fridge or fridge freezer, plus larder cupboard, between hall door & utility door.... Oven in corner, then work top / hob / work top...

Hmm.... I seem to have (almost) gone back to the idea my original post

I'm amazed and delighted by the number of responses and comments, BTW, thank you very much everyone. DH is so so tired from work, which he hates, that he finds it almost impossible to think when he gets home. I need to just present him with 2 or 3 options to choose from, it's all he can cope with . So everyone’s input on here has been invaluable.

On a more positive note, we are also planning hols for next year which he's slightly more interested in

Oh, and I think/agree - you do not have enough work space imho. Imagine yourself standing there. Where will you be chopping your veg? Where will you reach for the veg peeler? Where are your potatoes. Oh, a quick reach over to get the lemon juice from the fridge. Need a pan. Where is it?

You are about to serve up. Colander/sink/serving up area. Do they work. Unloading the dishwasher - room to have dirty stuff waiting to go in and easy access to put straight from dishwasher to "home".

Making coffee and tea in the morning. Kettle/coffee machine in the same place? Cups and teaspoons, sugar, teabags all in the same place? No need to move from one side of the kitchen to the other? Near the tap (ideal but not as much as the rest of the paraphernalia) Bliss (We had the opposite in our old kitchen with no way round it - was a bloody nightmare, I took a lot of time working out the ergonomics when planning ours.

And yes, work out where your bin and your tea towels will be going.

It sounds like you might be getting there pingpong and I can certainly sympathise with the dh problem. By the time we got to tile decisions I think my dh was ready to divorce me .

Latest draft - with larder and integrated fridge/freezer between the cupboard door and the utility door.

I think this is almost it! We may still get rid of the cupboard door and shuffle the fridge/freezer over a bit, or get a free standing one with larder cupboard next to it. I think he's got some 3D wizardry thing so we can see what it looks like properly.

Once again, thanks for all your comments

That looks more comfortable! One thing is you might think about losing a couple of wall units next to the cooker, if you are tall, it gives you so much more visibility and space when you are working at a worktop. Perhaps try to visualise this in your own kitchen. You could put an Ikea rack there if you don't want a blank space.

DH is tall and I eventually realised in our old kitchen, the only place he worked was the bit of worktop without wall cupboards even though it wasn't very well located, it was the only place he could see to the back.